Weird smoothbore question!

[Grizzled Roberts]

I have a newer India made musket which is safe. It started life as an 1816 reproduction. I did the 1812 modification by cutting a foot off the barrel and moving the front band to the middle.
Of course I like to shoot muskets so this one has been to the range a time or three. Now here comes the weird part. When I load it it is very tight the first 8 inches down. Then it gets looser
as you push it down. The last foot,the weight of the loading rod will seat the ball on the powder.
It seems to me that the barrel has an internal taper! If I load a patch and ball combination that is easily short started it will not group worth a hoot. If I pound a tighter load in the bore it will shoot one ragged hole at 25 yards.
But I am saying you really have to hammer this load in. It would not be practical to load like this on a trail walk or seneca run my favorite type of shooting.
Has anybody else ever seen anything like this?
My next try will be a bore diameter ball setting on a wad column.

Accurate load : .675 ball, 17 thousand patching
85 grains FFG
Easier to load but dont shoot worth a damn
.675 ball, 10 or 12 thousands
patch, 85 grains FFG
Wads under the patched ball does not make a differance.


Don't get me wrong, this little sawed off beast looks good on my mantle if it never shoots. But I was looking for a sawed off musket to counter Manyklatch and his short Bess and our big bore smoothbore grudge matches this spring. :grin:

 

[J.D.]

Sounds like you have a taper bored barrel, also known as choke bored.

You might try a smaller ball with a thicker patch. Most smoothbores seem to shoot well with a ball about .030 smaller than bore diameter and a thick patch.

 

[Many Klatch]

Hey Grizz, sounds like you have one heck of a shotgun choke. How does it do with shot? If you can't load it without a hammer, looks like I won't have any trouble beating you on the Woodswalk at Friendship this Spring.

Many Klatch

 

[Steve Blancard]

I have a newer India made musket which is safe.

Just curious - how do you know this is safe? My understanding is that there is no professional proof testing done on muzzleloaders.

 

[CoyoteJoe]

I encountered the same thing in an Indian 12 gauge percussion shotgun from MVTC. The bore measured .718" at the muzzle and .727" the breech. That was not a normal shotgun choke but seemed to hold at .718 for the front half of the bore, then taper larger down toward the breech. It threw cylinder bore patterns. Since 12ga standard is .729", I built a single flute reamer, attached a steel tube extension, and cranking it with a brace, I reamed it to a uniform .729" from the breech to within one inch of the muzzle. Taking very small cuts and keeping the bore flooded with cutting oil I spent a full day in re-boring it. I next cast a lead lap and polished it full length, spinning the lap about 600 rpm with an electric hand drill. In about half an hour I had a mirror polish and the resultant choke of only .011" gave me a full choke pattern of 74% in the 30" circle at 40 paces. The load was 3 1/4 drams of 2f Goex, 2 hard card overpowder wads, 1 1/4 ounce #6 shot and 1/2 a card wad as an overshot.
The old standard for 12ga full choke is .040" constriction so I was quite surprised that barrel throws full choke patterns with only .011" constriction, you just never know about smoothbores until you shoot some patterns.
But back to your issue, it sounds like a tapered bore is not uncommon with these Indian guns and if you want to correct it you have a job on your hands. :grin:

 

[Robert Shively]

CoyeteJoe,

Tell me more about the lead lap. I have need to polish out a smoothbore bore and would like to know exactly how this item is made and how it works.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Joe: You are getting fuller pattern with that load because the velocity is much less than you would get using Smokeless powder loads that are " equivalent". To test your velocity, package your load of shot inside a heavy paper cup, sealed at both ends, and fire it over a chronograph screen. The shot load is the same, as if it were loose shot, but you take less chance of damaging the screens or chronograph itself by making it into a " Solid " shot. Shotgun makers found they had to constrict bores more as the velocity rose, and this particularly occurred when the switch was made from black to semi-smokeless, and then to true smokeless.

 

[Grizzled Roberts]

This musket is an MVT. They are proof tested and stamped on the bottom. Give them a call and they will be glad to talk to you about it. I also studied the cut off section of the barrel and it has no seam. I have accidently proof tested it myself at my local range. Damn near needed a change of skivies!!

 

[Grizzled Roberts]

Manys the Klatch, If I can't pull a solution from my bag of tricks I can always fall back on Ole Dreadnought. It would be easier carrying a bag of .685s than a bag of .750s!!

You know me and shot, I wont shoot a shot load
until the Trade Gun match at Friendship! Thats where I get my three shots a year! If I retire next year I will go to the Fall shoot also. I will double my shot shooting with six rounds a year!!!!!

Hot Damn!

 

[chuckpa]

I have an MTV New England Fowler That also has a tapered bore, I thought that they made it that way on purpose to give it a choke. I guess it is jut the way they make the barrels.

 

[CoyoteJoe]

CoyeteJoe,

Tell me more about the lead lap. I have need to polish out a smoothbore bore and would like to know exactly how this item is made and how it works.

First of all, I had the breechplug out of this one and it would be pretty hard to do otherwise. The lap itself is quite simple. I got a 36" piece of 5/16" rod from True Value and filed about an inch and a half of it square with the corners notched at random intervals to retain the lead. While the lead pot was heating I wrapped a strip of cloth around the rod below the notched flats, the cloth making a snug fit in the bore. I added another cloth wrap about two feet down the rod to help keep it straight and centered. Once the lead was up to temp, a higher temp than I normally cast balls, I warmed the barrel with a propane torch, inserted the rod from the breech to within about an inch of the muzzle, then poured it full. Since that barrel was choked I had to remove the lap from the breech end. Then remove the cloth, oil the cooled lap and run it through the bore to be sure it will go all the way up to the choke. Then rubbed some 220 grit lapping compound onto the lap and reinserted it into the breech end of the bore. It will seem very tight until the grit gits embedded into the lead. I used a cordless drill to turn the lap while continually running it in and out from breech to muzzle. If it starts to torque up and get tight do not push it, just back out a bit and run back in a bit at a time until it seems to turn freely from end to end. Then add more lapping compound and continue. Toward the end it seemed loose and I doubted it was still cutting but when I stopped and patched the bore clean it was already taking on a shine so I just added more compound and shifted the drill's gear to high speed, which was still only about 600 rpms, and continued for a few minutes more. Then again wiped the bore clean and it was mirror bright full length.
Don't force the lap, it will stick and be a chore to remove. Be very careful in pouring the lead, don't trust the cloth to hold the rod in place while pouring but build up blocks or something to support the breech end of the rod, that molten lead is heavy. Just take your time and you will be pleased with the results. :grin:

 

[CoyoteJoe]

Paul, you may be on to something there. I've recently jug choked two 20ga barrels and two 12ga barrels and none of them took nearly as much constriction as I had expected to get the patterns I wanted.

 

[mike alexandre]

Thats good advice. I had the same problem with a Pedersoli Bess that I picked up second hand. The gun was over 20 years old and had had only one owner. I picked it up for a song because it was deemed to be only any good for blanks and re enactment. After spill boring to remove a .012 restriction in the middle of the barrel its now as accurate as any good musket.

 

[Robert Shively]

Thank, CoyeteJoe. That was a good description. I kinda had an idea around some of what you described, but now I know for sure. I'm going to give it a try on my next project.