weighting in on volume

Discussion in 'Shooting Accessories' started by JNG, Apr 24, 2008.

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  1. Apr 27, 2008 #21

    Len Graves

    Len Graves

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    In reply to JNG. What ever method you use to measure, be Dog Gone Sure you cover that bowl right after you scoop. Heard of a feller used to scoop from a empty peanut can for shot gun shootin. Some way something set her off. I guess nobody got hurt, but they all needed extra toilet paper. I know you probably do cover your bowl. I just got this old by worrying.
     
  2. May 2, 2008 #22

    Gunruner

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    I used a measure set to 30 gr and fired around 50 balls from a .44 Colt BP revolver. I then used 50 with charges weighed on a scale. Groups were dramaticly smaller with 2 different shooters and the weighed charges. Same gun, same day, same lot of balls, powder and caps. Has me a firm believer in weighing if you want or need real tight groups, IMO.........Mike
     
  3. May 2, 2008 #23

    Claude Mathis

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    I think the point is to "work up" the most accurate load for a given firearm. It doesn't matter whether you measure or weigh your powder, as long as you find the accurate load and stick with it. Your gun doesn't care how you arrived at the best load.

    Even if you weigh your powder to find the accurate load, you can still make a measure to hold that amount, saving you having to weigh it in the future. (Assuming you stick with the same powder and all things remain equal)
     
  4. May 4, 2008 #24

    Darkgael

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    Mike: Do you happen to know what the weight difference was between the two loads? It'd be interesting to know.
    Pete
     
  5. May 4, 2008 #25

    roundball

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    Different strokes I guess...I weighed powder charges to 1/10 of a grain during all the years of reloading several handguns and rifle calibers...nut now, one of the big attractions of black powder shooting to me is NOT to modernize it and do things like using scales to weigh charges.

    And IMHO there's not a member on this forum that could tell the difference or see different results between shooting a 100 grn charge of Goex 3F and 97grns :grin:
     
  6. May 4, 2008 #26

    Gunruner

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    Hi Folks, I wasn't advocating using a scale I was only giving you guys an insite into a test a friend and I ran. I usually measure my load at the range but if I go camping I'll weigh-up a bunch of pre"weighed" charges in a cartridge box and I'm good to go without a flask or measure. I build my loads when the weather is bad and it gives me something to do with the hobbie when I don't get out. Just info: My friend and I did the same thing with cartridge guns,to a point, with the same loads only changing different manufacture of primers. That was an eye opener also. Have a great time shooting folks.....Mike
     
  7. May 5, 2008 #27

    DVanVorous

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    Dunno but while I use the measure for all my ML stuff but measure then weigh everything for my BPCR stuff. Might add that I use Goex for both.

    Im a tad surprised that folks hadnt brought up the fact one DOES NOT weigh Pyrodex or the others substitutes due to the density difference issues...
    I'll grant the creation of "magic decoder ring" spread sheets abound that folks come up with but theres an ole saw about safe and sorry that comes to mind there... :wink:

    Keep yer powder dry,

    D.
     
  8. May 6, 2008 #28

    ResearchPress

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    Scales are not a modern invention, nor is weighing powder charges. British long range riflemen of the 19th century used weighed charges in their match rifles.

    This is a specialised field of target shooting and I do not suggest that it was widely practised. There were however concerns amongst the Volunteers competing with the P.53 service rifle at Wimbledon that the powder charge varied in the issue cartridges. There are a number of variations of powder checkers that were made. These volumetric measures were placed in the muzzle of the rifle and powder from the cartridge added. It could then be topped up or levelled off as need dictated to try and establish a consistent load, before releasing the charge down the bore. The P.53 Enfields were used in matches generally to 600 yards.

    The great experimenter and rifleman William Metford established in the 19th century that at 1000 yards there was approximately 9" change in elevation per grain of powder. Your load difference above could mean around 27" change in point of impact at that distance. This is a significant variation, especially when the bull's-eye at 1000yds only measures 24" diameter.

    A 5 grain variation in charge at 600 yards changes my elevation by about 3 minutes of angle, or approximately 18". That's about 3.5" per grain.

    David
     
  9. May 6, 2008 #29

    Claude Mathis

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    Come on David, most of us can't even see 1,000 yards. :haha:
     
  10. May 6, 2008 #30

    ResearchPress

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    The target frame is pretty big at 10' x 6' with big black dot in the middle - it does have the appearance of dancing around a lot though on a hot day with mirage. One gentleman aged over 90 who shoots with us is having to limit himself to 600 yards now as he has trouble seeing the long range target! :wink: :grin:

    David
     
  11. May 10, 2008 #31

    TANSTAAFL

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    Really? I have used them with good results for years. The charge slide rule is also marked for black powder.

    The Lee Powder Measure Kit contains 15 graduated powder dippers. ... "A must have for the black powder shooter. Great price. You'll use them time and time ... www.cabelas.com/prod-1/0003088210598a.shtml - 90k
     
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  12. Jan 21, 2010 #32

    David W.

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    It may be intresting to know that the way you handle your measure will make a difference. I have tested this by proping the measure and weighing the results and then holding the meadure in my hand. I had as much as 5 gr, variation. I next held the measure in my hand, filled it and tapped on the side. The powder settled down was refilled back to the top and I was able to load 4 gr. more on average. When I tapped and refilled the measure, I acheived very consistant loads. with only about 0.4 grain variation.

    I also saw no difference when I weighed Goex FFg and Goex FFFg. They both weighed the same. However, when I weighed Swiss FFFg, it weighed about 3 gr. more than the Goex.

    I know such precise measurements are not that critacle in muzzleloading, but it's been cold out and not much else to do.
     
  13. Apr 24, 2013 #33

    GaCop

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    Chiming in late but.......I've found exactly the same thing, weighed charges are more accurate than volume measured in my rifles.

    Tom
     
  14. Apr 24, 2013 #34

    Dphar

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    It is the ONLY way to get repeatable results. I WEIGH the contents of every measure I make/use so that I can RECREATE the load if I want to such as loosing the measure or wanting to increase the charge by 5 grains without guessing.
    Volume measures will throw a wide range of weights depending on granulation and the specific gravity of the powder. Swiss is heavier that Goex for example and will throw about 3-5 grains heavier in a 75+ grain vol measure.
    By trials I can determine not only how much the volume measure throws but how consistent my pouring from horn to measure is.
    Volume in MLs is less important than in BP cartridges where variations in compression of the powder due to changes in case capacity can have serious effects on velocity variations. Since MLs provide equal compression regardless on the volume weighing charges is more useful.
    But BPCR shooting is in many ways worlds apart from ML shooting.
    Weighing charges in not practical in most ML shooting or necessary. But knowing how much powder you are actually pouring from the volume measure is simply good practice.
    Dan
     
  15. Apr 24, 2013 #35

    tenngun

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    I know a lot of you all shoot in compitition.A slight change in wt can change everything...grouping,poi.drop ect.I hunt with my guns and do a little plinking.Hitting within 2 inchs of poa on a living target puts meat on the table,although it wouldn't help you on the range.I use an antler mesure in some guns and a wood measure in others.I can't win a compitition but.I dont come home hungry :wink:
     
  16. Apr 24, 2013 #36

    cynthialee

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    makes sense

    If I was compitition shooting I would weigh everything. As I am just a backyard dabler it seems like it would be a waste of my time.
     
  17. Apr 24, 2013 #37

    Billnpatti

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    You determined which one was "right" for your powder when you weighed the charges from each measure. But to say which one is right for every powder is hard to say. Each brand of powder has a different density and each granulation will have a different density. 3f will weigh more than an equal volume of 2f. If you were to compare, say, 3f powder from different manufacturers, each one would weigh just a bit more or less than an equal volume of the other. So, I have no idea what each manufacturer of measures uses as their standard powder to calibrate their measure. What all of this means is that when you see a powder measure that is marked with a powder weight, you must add the words "somewhere around this amount" because you have no idea how the manufacturer calibrated his measure. However, in the end, it is not the absolute weight of powder that you put in your gun but the consistency with which you measure it. If you find that one measure gives you the best accuracy, use it and only it to measure the powder for that gun. In actual weight, it may be off a bit but that is not important, what is important is consistency. When you fill your measure, do not tap on it, just fill it to the top and pour the measure of powder in your bore. If you tap on the measure to settle the powder, it is hard to tap it exactly the same every time and that will result in a different amount of powder being loaded from shot to shot. When it comes to shooting a muzzleloading rifle, consistency in all things is the answer to getting the maximum accuracy your rifle is capable of delivering.
     
  18. Apr 24, 2013 #38

    necchi

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    And that is the absolute end.

    I have several adjustable "volume" measures and none will measure the same volume by weight let alone the same volume when compared to each other.

    I too went through the struggle of trying to makes sense of the olde,,
    "Weight vrs Volume" argument and came to the same/sane conclusion that Bill points out,
    Whatever method you choose and/or whichever volume measure you use, just use it the same way each time.

    FWIW, Volume measure works just fine for me.
     
  19. Apr 24, 2013 #39

    jdkerstetter

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    Volume measurement works great for just about every situation.

    All reloading presses work off of this priciple and unless one is trying to wring minute of gnat out of a particular gun....say benchrest shooting....then most will never be able to tell the difference between measuring every charge by weight or properly measuring it by volume.

    I have reloaded over 200K rounds using Lee, RCBS and then Dillon equipment and confirmed and reconfirmed this over and over again....verifying the weights thrown on balance and electronic scales. Some types of powder meter better than others but consistancy is the rule rather than the exception.

    Enjoy, J.D.
     
  20. Apr 25, 2013 #40

    Rat Trapper

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    I've gotten my best groups by weighting my powder. Northland Fishing tackle company sells some small plastic tubes intended for beads and hooks. I like them for 32 & 36 caliber charges. For the bigger hunting rifles, TC makes plenty of plastic 4N1 and quick shots for storing powder and ball. For deer hunting half doz loads and a loaded rifle should get you through the day. I don't want to carry a horn around if I don't have to.
     

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