Weapons of Midwestern Pioneers

[Cosmoline]

But how much were they charging for a *rifle*, hand crafted, prior to the post-Civil War industrialization? My understanding could be completely wrong, but I thought a gunsmith would be asking a rather substantial sum for rifles due to the time involved.

 

[LaBonte]

But how much were they charging for a *rifle*, hand crafted, prior to the post-Civil War industrialization? My understanding could be completely wrong, but I thought a gunsmith would be asking a rather substantial sum for rifles due to the time involved.

Would depend on what era - by the 1820's and later trade rifles made by large concerns such as Dickert, Gonter, Henry, Leman, et al. were selling trade rifles (not smooth bores) for $8.00 and on up dependent on how fancy, etc. By the same period local smith were wide and their prices varied - Philip Cremaer who was in Illinois from around 1800 on built some of the finest flintlock locks as well as all matter of guns: rifles, pistols, and smoothbores and his prices ran the gamu from cheap to "if you have to ask..."

 

On the same thought, trade guns (smooth bores not rifles) were half that amount as mentioned. Tryon in Phila advertised them in the $4.00 plus range retail for single units. They would have had better prices to traders, stores or trading posts (dealers). But remember that's off the ship too, not carried half way across the country adding to the retail pricing.

Like everything then and now the more purchased the better the pricing. :cursing: Later on I'll open another post and tell you a funny story about Tryon.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Even a local gunstocker with a small shop could build a surprising number of rifles in a year in this time period, since he bought his barrels and locks at the very least. Quite a bit of time was saved right there.

 

Charles E. Hanson, Jr. wrote: "The bulk of the trade guns, even though stamped LONDON on the barrel, were actually produced during a beehive of activity in the industrial area of Birmingham , England . The extensive firearms trade not only produced for the North American export business, but Africa , India and the military as well. London provided keen competition, but Birmingham superseded the business because of an extensive supply of coal, raw materials, and an active labor force. Factories we are familiar with today were virtually non-existent during this period, but never the less, production lines came from family type structures, each adding to the completed process. Consider multitudes of separate tasks accomplished by individuals, which were finally brought together to an assembly source. Hence we find Northwest Guns with similar parts, but stamped with different maker’s names such as Whately, Grice, Chance, Barnett, Sharpe and others. For example, separate groups and sub-groups produced locks. Sawyers and woodcutters yielded the stock material. Barrel forgers, welders, and reamers produced that element from the forge and anvil. Stock in letter's set in the parts, and then came the filers, polisher's, browner's, and even small tasks such as barrel pin forgers. The end result yielded an inexpensive firearm, built for the trade, and embellished with the maker’s name.......”

 

[CoyoteJoe]

Buck, you spoke of the soldier mustering out with the clothes on his back and his issue musket. No way, that musket was government property and he had dang well better not walk off with it. I doubt that many people just thought of buying a gun the day they up and decided to move west, most probably owned firearms as children. Immigrants newly arrived in the U.S. probably did have to obtain a firearm of some sort and yes, old surplus muskets were available at very cheap prices but for good reason, the government also wasn't rich and they didn't sell off perfectly good guns for a fraction of their value.

 

[pichou]

The extensive firearms trade not only produced for the North American export business, but Africa , India and the military as well.

This holds true for knife makers in Sheffield as well. Ebenezer Parker, for instance, was listed in 1787 as a cutler and factor for the African, Lascar (India) and Quebec trades. Knives bearing his father's mark, a dagger over V over I are fairly common in the Upper Great Lakes Region.

 

[Cosmoline]

My understanding is the first big surplus market in the US was after the CW, which is why you can find so many crudely customized Springfields around. My own Grandfather, born around 1890, picked up a Richmond Rifle back in Illinois that was surplussed from CSA stock. He used it as a barn gun firing shot out of it for many years. For a long time the family thought it *was* a shotgun until my older bro. researched it back in the 70's after my Grandfather's death.

Dad still has that thing. It actually looks very good and I was thinking about loading it up with RB and a moderate load of 2F :grin:

 

[LaBonte]

My understanding is the first big surplus market in the US was after the CW

The US Gov't started such surplus sales in the 1820's (one of their first surplus sales was actually in 1806 when L & C's gear was auctioned off) and such sales increased in the 1840's with the surge in emigrants to the west.
The point is "cheap" guns, including rifles, were available in large quantities throughout the 1800's and dependent on ones origins rifles were frequently preferred. In many cases this included not only the "whites" but Indians, especially the tribes forced west i.e Shawnee, Delaware, Choctaw, et al, of the 1800-1860 period preferred rifles over smooth bores and it is well documented. There are records denoting the fact that such tribes as the Choctaw refused smoothbores and demanded rifles.

 

[Cosmoline]

Now there's an auction to go back in time for!

 

Buck, you spoke of the soldier mustering out with the clothes on his back and his issue musket. No way, that musket was government property and he had dang well better not walk off with it.

Joe,

I'm not trying to be a wise guy, but my family has dealt in antiques (firearms included) since before the depression.

Bannerman & Sons during the depression were selling muskets as mentioned in my post for $2 to $3 dollars. The family would always have a few for sale purchased from this firm, several would be marked as "Stolen Government Arms". Those old muskets (smoothbores) would have no markings, names or proofmarks, everything filed off years before. This was not uncommon from the Rev. War into the Civil War. The Civil War weapons seemed to have experienced this practice more commonly.

We just sold about 6 weeks ago a pair of 1860 Army Colts with no numbers, manufacturers name or proofmarks. Even the government stamps on the grips had been removed leaving a low spot of their former location. These came from a family estate sale when we purchased them as belonging to one of their family members. Of course that is just what we were told.

There have been artcles of this practice in several of the gun magazines over the years, last one seen was in a Guns & Ammo magazine, article was done by Phil Spanburg I believe.

 

.........That would also explain why it is the expensive, comparatively rare rifles which have the vaunted local provenance. Who bothers to keep track of provenance on a crude barn gun?

DEPENDING ON THE LOCATION IN SOME CASES THESE GUNS WERE REFERRED TO BY DIFFERENT NAMES. IN PA., NY., DE., AND NJ. THEY WERE "FARM GUNS" OR "BARN GUNS". IN OTHER PLACES THEY MAY BE CALLED SOMETHING TOTALLY DIFFERENT. I GOT A FAST LESSON ON THIS FROM CHARLES HANSON, JR. ONE TIME. MY MISTAKE AND HE WAS MORE THAN HAPPY TO RUB MY NOSE IN IT.

While each maker may not turn out all that many guns per year, one has to consider the sheer numbers of makers that were in business.

CHARLES HANSON'S BOOK "THE NORTHWEST TRADEGUN" SHOWS APPROXIMATELY (51) MAJOR MANUFACTURERS WHEN IT WAS PUBLISHED. I WAS WRITING SOME ARTICLES FOR JOHN BAIRD'S "BUCKSKIN REPORT" AND CHARLIE TALKED ME INTO FINISHING WHAT HE HAD STARTED. HIM AND CURLY G. GAVE ME MANY PHOTOS OF GUNS FOUND AND NOT LISTED IN CHARLIE'S WORK, ALONG WITH THAT THEY WOULD KEEP ME POSTED ON ANY NEW ADDITIONS. BY THE TIME MY BOOK WAS READY FOR EDITING WE HAD GATHERED (125) MANUFACTURERS. I HAVE A FEW DOZEN MORE UNKNOWN FIRMS THAT HAVE JUST CAME TO LIGHT IN THE LAST FEW YEARS. THE POINT IS WHAT WAS WRITTEN A FEW YEARS AGO MAY NOT BE TOTALLY CORRECT WITH ANY OF THESE SUBJECTS, THERES ALWAYS A FEW GREY AREAS.

Well Buck, I guess I have become so gun shy from being attacked as an authentinazi that I have begun to let sleeping dogs lie, when it comes to misinformation posted on this and other forums.

J.D. ALL ANY OF US CAN DO IS RESEARCH, RESEARCH AND MORE RESEARCH AND THAT MAY NOT STILL BE ENOUGH. EVERY ONCE IN A WHILE SOMEONE WILL BLOW THAT "ITS SET IN CONCRETE ITEM" ALL TO HELL. GUESS THAT'S LIFE. JUST DO YOUR RESEARCH AND SHARE WHAT YOU FIND, I HAVE DONE THAT FOR YEARS. HAVE BEEN BEATUP OVER SOME FINDINGS BECAUSE SOMEONE ELSE DIDN'T LIKE WHAT WAS FOUND. HEY THAT'S WHAT RESEARCH IS ALL ABOUT - TRYING TO GET ALL THE FACTS TO SEE A CLEARIER PICTURE.

Good to see you posting here, BTW.

I'm looking forward to reading your comments on some of the subjects posted on this forum.

God bless

Please excuse the captial letters was trying to make my remarks be seen within the quotes. Don't want to hurt anyones feelings thinking I'm yelling. J.D. thank you for your thoughts and please share your findings. :thumbsup:

 

Please excuse the captial letters was trying to make my remarks be seen within the quotes. Don't want to hurt anyones feelings thinking I'm yelling.

Colored text works well too. All caps is very hard to read. :v

 

Please excuse the captial letters was trying to make my remarks be seen within the quotes. Don't want to hurt anyones feelings thinking I'm yelling.

Colored text works well too. All caps is very hard to read. :v

A good idea, thank you. I'll do that in the future. :thumbsup:

 

[necchi]

" HEY THAT'S WHAT RESEARCH IS ALL ABOUT - TRYING TO GET ALL THE FACTS TO SEE A CLEARIER PICTURE "

I'm glad you said that,,so much of what we research historicaly,,is/was just one persons opinion that just happen to have been recorded.

As is today, people then were bias.

College prof's today will edit historical text for their class work just to make a single point, then ten years later it's taken as gospil :barf:

Some just research until they find what they like, then stop.

 

[Poor Private]

Buck, you spoke of the soldier mustering out with the clothes on his back and his issue musket. No way, that musket was government property and he had dang well better not walk off with it.

Joe,

I'm not trying to be a wise guy, but my family has dealt in antiques (firearms included) since before the depression.

Bannerman & Sons during the depression were selling muskets as mentioned in my post for $2 to $3 dollars. The family would always have a few for sale purchased from this firm, several would be marked as "Stolen Government Arms". Those old muskets (smoothbores) would have no markings, names or proofmarks, everything filed off years before. This was not uncommon from the Rev. War into the Civil War. The Civil War weapons seemed to have experienced this practice more commonly.

We just sold about 6 weeks ago a pair of 1860 Army Colts with no numbers, manufacturers name or proofmarks. Even the government stamps on the grips had been removed leaving a low spot of their former location. These came from a family estate sale when we purchased them as belonging to one of their family members. Of course that is just what we were told.

There have been artcles of this practice in several of the gun magazines over the years, last one seen was in a Guns & Ammo magazine, article was done by Phil Spanburg I believe.

I do civil war reenacting and am a amatuer historian. The reason you find lots and lots of pistols from families that any kind of historical documentation is because most were from civil war officers. At the surrender at Appamatox the southern officers were allowed to keep thier horse and side arm. The muskets of the southern solders were stacked, as they marched away. Read a memior by Gen. Joshua Chamberlain who was in command of the northern troops who saluted to the southern soldiers as they marched by.
The only soldiers who did get to keep thier long guns were from the North who got to keep certain peices of equipment in lieu of mustering out pay. Which in my understanding was not a large percentage as most of the union troops came from settled areas, and had no need for a weapon. Such as New York, Detroit, Pittsburgh(no need for a gun in the city), or even smaller communities. Alot of the northern boys were factory workers, clerks and other town related professions- such coal miners they had no use for a weapon. If they had a "civil war"weapon alot of them bought them later when the U.S. government sold off excess, and outdated arms, which is how Bannerman came into large quantities of C.W. weapons, for pennies apiece such as the Roger & Spencer for 12 cents each. Then resold to. Which is how alot of CW era weapons ended up as family heirlooms Who doesn't want a Enfield or Springfield hanging over the fireplace or doorway ( I know I do as I have one there now).
Also if your going to use a fellow authors name in your references please take the time to learn how to spell his name (Phil Spangenberger)-- Being one who has had his names spelling mangled his whole life I take a bit of defence about it.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Heck, Poor Private is easy to spell! Even I can get it right! :wink:

 

Also if your going to use a fellow authors name in your references please take the time to learn how to spell his name (Phil Spangenberger)-- Being one who has had his names spelling mangled his whole life I take a bit of defence about it.

That was a slam on Phil, we have had some fun with his name in several camps over the years. Phil himself makes fun of his family's name and spelling which has changed several times centuries ago according to him. I could tell you some funny stuff about Phil. Next time I'll do as you wish.