-
This community needs YOUR help today. We rely 100% on Supporting Memberships to fund our efforts. With the ever increasing fees of everything, we need help. We need more Supporting Members, today. Please invest back into this community. I will ship a few decals too in addition to all the account perks you get.
Sign up here: https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/account/upgrades -
Friends, our 2nd Amendment rights are always under attack and the NRA has been a constant for decades in helping fight that fight.
We have partnered with the NRA to offer you a discount on membership and Muzzleloading Forum gets a small percentage too of each membership, so you are supporting both the NRA and us.
Use this link to sign up please; https://membership.nra.org/recruiters/join/XR045103
using shot in a rifled barrel?
- Thread starter WNC
- Start date
Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:
It might, T/C use to make shot shells for their Contender...
So, I know it could be done.
You would need a tall, thin wall shot cup/sabot to get the job done...
I would weigh out the shot and sabot to see if it is close to the bullet/ball weight normally used, if lighter, then powder would have to be adjusted for the weight of the shot charge...
If you do use this sabot with shot, you will also need a "overshot card", a round disc of light weight cardboard (like from a cerial box), shot cards can easly be made at home.
I would use the base of a .54 caliber sabot to get the size, just trace them and cut them out on the outside of the tracing line. You would want it a little snug...
This disc is used to keep the shot from draining out of the shot cup/sabot, just in case you don't keep the barrel pointing up all of the time. The loose shot would act as a barrel obstruction if it was allowed to float freely inside the barrel.
So, I know it could be done.
You would need a tall, thin wall shot cup/sabot to get the job done...
I would weigh out the shot and sabot to see if it is close to the bullet/ball weight normally used, if lighter, then powder would have to be adjusted for the weight of the shot charge...
If you do use this sabot with shot, you will also need a "overshot card", a round disc of light weight cardboard (like from a cerial box), shot cards can easly be made at home.
I would use the base of a .54 caliber sabot to get the size, just trace them and cut them out on the outside of the tracing line. You would want it a little snug...
This disc is used to keep the shot from draining out of the shot cup/sabot, just in case you don't keep the barrel pointing up all of the time. The loose shot would act as a barrel obstruction if it was allowed to float freely inside the barrel.
You know greg, that is kind of a interesting question. Back when they first came out with the 'shot cups' for .38-.357, I bought a number of boxes. As a matter of fact I think I still have a box or two left. Anyhow, they were plastic cups with screw on lids. You filled them with #9 shot and it did a pretty good job at really close range. I think it was touted as a 'snake load'.
Before that there had been a company that were taking revolvers like the old Colt and S&W .45AR and smoothboring the barrels and rechambering for a full length brass case. The shot was then encased within the brass case and I seem to remember even reading something about there being a choke in the barrel.
Anyway...the Feds put a stop to it...it was considered a 'sawed off shotgun' under the law.
The problem, I believe, is the depth of the goove not engraving on a sabot or wad deeply enough to start with, unless you put an 'over powder card' below the sabot/wad. In a handgun where the projectile's base is attempting to travel faster than the nose under acceleration, the expanding shotcup would be engraved by the lands and gooves when jumping from the cylinder into the forcing cone. I think in your rifle the skirt of the wad and the bulk of the main charge would then form a seal...but I don't know.
But the .54 caliber is about 32 gauge and maybe you could get that wad somewhere.
Gauge/ Caliber Bore Size
6ga. .919
Before that there had been a company that were taking revolvers like the old Colt and S&W .45AR and smoothboring the barrels and rechambering for a full length brass case. The shot was then encased within the brass case and I seem to remember even reading something about there being a choke in the barrel.
Anyway...the Feds put a stop to it...it was considered a 'sawed off shotgun' under the law.
The problem, I believe, is the depth of the goove not engraving on a sabot or wad deeply enough to start with, unless you put an 'over powder card' below the sabot/wad. In a handgun where the projectile's base is attempting to travel faster than the nose under acceleration, the expanding shotcup would be engraved by the lands and gooves when jumping from the cylinder into the forcing cone. I think in your rifle the skirt of the wad and the bulk of the main charge would then form a seal...but I don't know.
But the .54 caliber is about 32 gauge and maybe you could get that wad somewhere.
Gauge/ Caliber Bore Size
6ga. .919
We make shot loads for smoothbores by using a dowel and wads and wrappin it with paper and putting shot inside and an overshot wad and glueing the ends. Makes for faster loading when shooting rabbits and grouse. You need to use one size smaller wad. I use 24 ga. for the .62 or 20 ga. and they work very well but I also have a .62
rifle and while it works it doesn't work nearly as well because the spin spreads the shot into a wide pattern usually with a hole in the center.
Also you may get some leading which is hard to remove because you cant see exactly where it is.
Best advice is get a smoothbore. I have a 20 ga. pistol( was a .45 that I bored out) that sometime I pack along for the shot loads.
rifle and while it works it doesn't work nearly as well because the spin spreads the shot into a wide pattern usually with a hole in the center.
Also you may get some leading which is hard to remove because you cant see exactly where it is.
Best advice is get a smoothbore. I have a 20 ga. pistol( was a .45 that I bored out) that sometime I pack along for the shot loads.
As was said, 't won't damage yer gun but might lead 'er up some.
A'm a thinnen 'tould give new meanin' to the ol' term "spreader load".
Might be real handy if'n ye have 10 rats cornered in a barn stall. One shot---10 dead rats! Ye doesn't even hav ter reload!
A'm a thinnen 'tould give new meanin' to the ol' term "spreader load".
Might be real handy if'n ye have 10 rats cornered in a barn stall. One shot---10 dead rats! Ye doesn't even hav ter reload!
Guest
One of the problems with sabots and/or shot cups in rifled arms is the pin-wheel effect. Thus the short rang proposition of such loads whether in rifles or hanguns. The centrifugal force from the rifling spreads the shot disproportionally. You ain't gonna kill many quail on the wing with a shot load fired from a rifled, 54 cal. muzzleloader.....or even a 62 or 75....unless you're sitting on top of them. Smoothbores are a diffent proposition.
Vic
Vic
Guest
greg, if my memory regarding "trade guns" serves me correctly that is exactly what they were and they were used with both ball and shot. Quite a wonderful and effective compromise in my opinion. I wish I knew more about them.
Vic
Vic
Well...if you all can stand it, we will delve into this 'trade gun' topic. Starting with the fact that the HBC and NWC tended to carry more shot than ball into the wilderness. The problem is inextricably linked with the game and with the NAs largest daily/annual problem.
Voyageur
Voyageur
You take a 3/8" thick 24 ga felt wad, hot glue it to the cup of a 28 ga AA wad that you cut the cushion off from (just use the cup). Then ya lube it with some bore butter, crisco, grease of whatever ya like, then load 1 oz of powder by volume & ya start the wad in by hand then use the small end out yer ramrod & push it on down. Then 1 oz volume of shot on this & then a over card.
The results from a rifled barrel are a big wide oval pattern that might hit one blackbird at 20' should 200 of them were to come up at one timee ! ha ha ! Absolutely horrible patterns & wade as a country mile in a rifle bore. I have tried them 49 dif ways with ccups without, paper, plastic, you name it, a rifled bore sucks for a shotgun.
Now, a smoothbore is a whole dif thing. I have a original 1861 I.Hollis & Sons percussion 24 ga double that I use the same load in & that sucker is a quail killin machine & I have shot hundreds of quail with it & some pheasants also. I shoot
1/2 oz of FF Goex & 7.5 shot in it & it is a real hoot to hunt with & don't shoot the birds up either with only 1/2 oz of shot. For pheasants I use 3/4 oz of #5 in it.
The lubed felt wad lubes the bore going down & as it is shot the pressure from the ignition squeezes the lube out of the felt & it lubes it going out also so I can shoot it 35-40 times in a day & not have any problems loading & don't even swab it when hunting or reloading.
The results from a rifled barrel are a big wide oval pattern that might hit one blackbird at 20' should 200 of them were to come up at one timee ! ha ha ! Absolutely horrible patterns & wade as a country mile in a rifle bore. I have tried them 49 dif ways with ccups without, paper, plastic, you name it, a rifled bore sucks for a shotgun.
Now, a smoothbore is a whole dif thing. I have a original 1861 I.Hollis & Sons percussion 24 ga double that I use the same load in & that sucker is a quail killin machine & I have shot hundreds of quail with it & some pheasants also. I shoot
1/2 oz of FF Goex & 7.5 shot in it & it is a real hoot to hunt with & don't shoot the birds up either with only 1/2 oz of shot. For pheasants I use 3/4 oz of #5 in it.
The lubed felt wad lubes the bore going down & as it is shot the pressure from the ignition squeezes the lube out of the felt & it lubes it going out also so I can shoot it 35-40 times in a day & not have any problems loading & don't even swab it when hunting or reloading.
My .75 caliber Brown Bess can do both ball and shot.
I have taken the whily fox squirrels with it using a 2 3/4 dram (75 grains) of black powder, a thick over-powder card, 1/2 inch felt wad (lubed), 1 1/4 oz load of #6 shot and a overshot card to hold it all in place.
This works out roughly to a mild 12 gauge load, I never shot birds with it yet.
I have taken the whily fox squirrels with it using a 2 3/4 dram (75 grains) of black powder, a thick over-powder card, 1/2 inch felt wad (lubed), 1 1/4 oz load of #6 shot and a overshot card to hold it all in place.
This works out roughly to a mild 12 gauge load, I never shot birds with it yet.
I have a French Fucil de chasse. .62 cal. smoothbore that I hunt grouse and rabbits with
and also shoot it in competition where sometime
on woods walks we will shoot both steel targets and clay birds. They tell you whats coming next
so you'll know what to load, ball or shot. I make my shot loads with 24 ga. cushion wad, paper wrap
1 1/8 oz. shot, over shot wad over 75 grs. 2f.
works for me. Up to 25 yds. or so a smooth bore with balls will shoot almost as well if not as well as a rifled bore. It's harder to shoot because your not allowed to have a rear sight, only a front, in trade gun competition.
and also shoot it in competition where sometime
on woods walks we will shoot both steel targets and clay birds. They tell you whats coming next
so you'll know what to load, ball or shot. I make my shot loads with 24 ga. cushion wad, paper wrap
1 1/8 oz. shot, over shot wad over 75 grs. 2f.
works for me. Up to 25 yds. or so a smooth bore with balls will shoot almost as well if not as well as a rifled bore. It's harder to shoot because your not allowed to have a rear sight, only a front, in trade gun competition.
What would be the best way to go as far as barrel/caliber for a TC Hawken that has a 1" diameter barrel already? Does Green Mountain make a smoothbore along the same lines as a 20ga equivalent that I could switch out?
Might have to make a call to Santa
Thanks
Greg
Might have to make a call to Santa
Thanks
Greg
Yes, in fact I bought a .62cal(.20ga) smoothbore Green Mountain "drop in" barrel for a TC Hawken and really like it.
Grn Mt only offered it in a percussion but finally gave in to my pestering and agreed to put a flint breech plug on one for me...they did and it's fantastic.
They got so charged up with the idea that they told me they were going to add a flint version to their barrel line in the beginning of 2004.
PS:
If you get one and are interested in using it for shot loads, I did a lot of experimenting and developed a terrific long range, thick patterned load using paper shot cups I'll share with you.
Grn Mt only offered it in a percussion but finally gave in to my pestering and agreed to put a flint breech plug on one for me...they did and it's fantastic.
They got so charged up with the idea that they told me they were going to add a flint version to their barrel line in the beginning of 2004.
PS:
If you get one and are interested in using it for shot loads, I did a lot of experimenting and developed a terrific long range, thick patterned load using paper shot cups I'll share with you.
I talked with Kerry and Rick both on that also for my Lyman in a 15/16 smooth bore flint version. If you do get one and have a L&R Replacement lock, be advised that the touch hole liner will be in the wrong location, too far to the rear. Order it without the touch hole liner drilled and drill it yourself. The L&R pan is smaller than the TC and slightly forward. It will still work, but to be in the best location it would be best to drill your own. They are good people there and I believe they will work with you on anything you want. Take care, Rick.
The only problem with the drop in barrel is the TC stocks don't have much drop and since there should be no rear sight on a smoothbore and since your eye must get down to barrel level, it doesn't work.
TC made a 24 ga. smoothbore on the Renegade stock.
It can be used with tall sights but not in competition where no rear sight is required. They don't make them anymore.
Do you have sights on your GM dropin?
TC made a 24 ga. smoothbore on the Renegade stock.
It can be used with tall sights but not in competition where no rear sight is required. They don't make them anymore.
Do you have sights on your GM dropin?
The .62cal drop in barrels for TC Hawkens have a set of front & rear sights on them virtually identically to TC sights, so I'm puzzled at the reference to a "drop" problem...my .62cal barrel sits in a TC stock and shoots like any other TC Hawken I have.
PS: Note that the Green Mountain "drop in" barrel for a TC Hawken will require a couple more things to really look like a TC Hawken barrel, which you'll have to buy...probably another $40:
1) The GM thimbles are black, so you'll have to buy a set of brass thimbles to match the Hawken brass furniture;
2) The ramrod is hollow black anodized aluminium with chrome tips, and not traditional looking at all (made by Knight), so I bought a brass ramrod.
PS: Note that the Green Mountain "drop in" barrel for a TC Hawken will require a couple more things to really look like a TC Hawken barrel, which you'll have to buy...probably another $40:
1) The GM thimbles are black, so you'll have to buy a set of brass thimbles to match the Hawken brass furniture;
2) The ramrod is hollow black anodized aluminium with chrome tips, and not traditional looking at all (made by Knight), so I bought a brass ramrod.
roundball,
I just received a .32 caliber GM drop in barrel for my TC and you're right. I don't know what the black ramrod is made of but it sure is flexible. Mine came with brass tips installed with roll pins so I have the choice of putting the tips on a hardwood rod or using a solid brass rod. Where would I purchase brass thimbles?
I just received a .32 caliber GM drop in barrel for my TC and you're right. I don't know what the black ramrod is made of but it sure is flexible. Mine came with brass tips installed with roll pins so I have the choice of putting the tips on a hardwood rod or using a solid brass rod. Where would I purchase brass thimbles?
