US Model 1841 Mississippi Rifle

[bstormer108]

Due to a series of unfortunate events within my family I have recently inherited some interesting rifles; one such rifle is this US Model 1841 Mississippi Rifle (pics). I am very much into classic and modern cartridge-fed firearms but I don't know the first thing about muzzleloaders, especially 150+ year old muzzleloaders! As you can see from the photos, the rifle was manufactured in Philadelphia, PA by Tryon in 1848. I'm looking to learn some more about these rifles in regards to their history, current popularity, price, etc. I want to make an educated decision on whether this rifle should be restored and kept in the family or sold/passed on to someone who can appreciate it and care for it better than I.

Any help is GREATLY appreciated!!!

 

[Larry Akers]

The 1841 Mississippi rifle and the 1841 musket were the first U.S. models to have percussion ignition. They were also the first models to be made to a set of gauges to insure interchangability of parts. The musket was the last smoothbore to be made for the Government--all succeeding models were rifled. The Mississippi was .54 cal. rifled 1 turn in 66" and was for patched round ball. In 1855 the caliber was increased to .58 to accept the standard rifled musket "minnie" ball.

I have a cut-down 1841 musket that was bored out and made into a shotgun sometime in it's life as many of them were after the war.

 

[bob308]

in the condition in the pictures. I would only oil it. clean the bore . but leave the out side alone. you would only destroy value and history to clean it up or restore it.

if you are near me I could take a look at it for you.

 

[bstormer108]

Bob:

I'm located in Mechanicsburg so you're only a short drive down the road. If you have any knowledge of these rifles I'd appreciate that very much. I have emails in to some large companies who specialize in this type of firearm, but it would be great to learn about the rifle one-on-one.

 

[Richard Brinkman]

I would check to make sure that it is not loaded?

 

[Artificer]

The last time I visited the Harpers Ferry NPS museum, they had all the original gauges for the M1841 on display along with some original parts in them, in a large glass enclosed case. I’m afraid I left nose and cheek prints all over the glass trying to get a closer look at them, though I did wipe the glass down with a clean handkerchief afterwards.

These rifles were used very successfully in the Mexican War and got their Nickname of “Mississippi Rifles” there due to Jefferson Davis’s Mississippi Regiment using them. This rifle was also THE most copied Rifle made in the South at the beginning of the War Between the States and were made by many Southron contractors. Some were made in the original .54 caliber like your rifle may be and some were made in .58 caliber.

Some of these rifles are still being shot in International Muzzle Loading Competition today, where Original Guns/Rifles are shot in many of the matches.

I concur the first thing to do is ensure it is not loaded and then oil it down. The bore looks like it REALLY needs some oil. I would advise against using a bronze bristle brush in the bore, but only because it could get stuck if it is too large/tight in the bore. Even a bronze brush for a 20 Gauge shotgun is too large. However, a G.I. Bore Brush for .50 caliber MG’s and .45 cal. pistols would scrub the bore well without being too large to get stuck in the bore. Just don’t buy a cheap, Non G.I. brush that can come apart in the bore.

I also very much agree that you not try to clean up the brass or Iron or Steel parts, as that will seriously lower the collector value.

Gus

 

[hanshi]

Welcome to the forum, Ben. LJA has given you much of the history of the rifle as have the others. The US M1841 was also the last military rifle designed for patched round ball.

I'll emphasize the advice given on doing anything to the rifle other than checking for a load, wiping it down & oiling against rust. That rifle is an heirloom and has historical significance. I own an M1841 reproduction in the original .54, that I got through Euroarms years ago. It's a faithful copy of the original and is exquisitely fitted and finished. The accuracy of these rifles is phenomenal. Mine has taken deer and is very satisfying to shoot.

 

[rdstrain49]

I'm afraid that I'd have to scope the bore and if all was well, shoot it. I know, metal fatigue etc. not a good idea, I'd still have to shoot it.

 

[bstormer108]

Thank you all for the wonderful information. I haven't done anything with the rifle yet because I was afraid to even oil it.. I'm very particular with my rifles and the rusty bore has been killing me! I'll find the proper brush to get it cleaned and oiled as soon as possible.

Is it possible to get a rifle such as this professionally graded and certified? I know that it is not in the best of shape, but I would like to have that done for my own curiosity. This rifle and the story it tells fascinates me every time I pick it up.

 

[rdstrain49]

Be careful not to get the brush stuck, easy to do with a muzzleloader.

 

[Artificer]

Ben,

Not sure if you know how to check to see if your rifle is still loaded? If you put the original rammer down the bore, it should go most of the way down and only stick out from the bore a very little bit. If it sticks out a couple of inches, there is a good chance it is still loaded.

I do not know anyone in your area who would be a good person to recommend for doing an evaluation and value estimate. What I would suggest is you contact the Ohio Gun Collectors Association Business Office and ask them for a recommendation for someone in your area. This is a highly prestigious organization in the Gun Collecting Community and if they can’t help, perhaps they can give you another lead. http://www.ogca.com/contact_us.htm

Speaking of the quality of Interchangeable parts on these rifles, I have an interesting story from late 1995/early 96. I went to the U.S. International Team Try Outs for the first time as the new Team Armourer. Some of the shooters had known me from years of working at the NSSA Spring and Fall National Championships and others did not know me at all, depending on their shooting discipline.

One shooter who had at least seen me for many years at the NSSA shoots, had gotten a patch stuck in the bore of his original M1841 Rifle. He did not have anything to retrieve the patch, so he came up to me to see if I did. I asked if the rammer in his rifle was original? He said he was pretty sure it was. I collected original gun tools in those days, so I pulled out an original Worm for that rifle. I told him if his rammer was original, it would screw right on and he could use it to remove the patch. He looked at me with some disbelief because machine threads in those days were often quite different than modern threads and often very different from each other. I grinned and again suggested he try it. Sure enough the Worm screwed right on correctly and he quickly got the stuck patch out of his bore.

When he brought the Worm back, he told me he had not believed it would work. I reminded him the M1841 was built on the Interchangeable parts system and that is how I knew the Worm would work. He shook his head and said he should have thought about that.

Gus

 

[varsity07840]

If you have ideas about shooting it, get the barrel to Bob Hoyt in
Fairfield, PA or Dan Whitacre in Winchester, VA they can check it out for you. Judging by the pic of the muzzle, if otherwise sound a reline is probably needed. Both of them do relines and Dan will make you a new drop in barrel. He may even have one on hand. Bob is just coming off knee surgery so he's pretty well backed up.

 

[bstormer108]

Sorry, I forgot to mention that in my last reply. I cleared and deemed the rifle safe as soon as I laid hands on it. I will send an email to OGCA right now.

I would absolutely love to shoot the rifle, but how much will a reline affect the historical value? I won't ruin the history in this gun because of my selfish desire to shoot it but if a reline would make no difference I am quite interested.

 

[varsity07840]

I'm not the best one to answer that question as all my antiques are shooters first, collector second. I'd post that question on the antique guns section of the forum on www.americanlongrifles.com or on
the forum on www.n-ssa.org which is the Mecca for those who shoot
Civil War guns. By the way another option would be to fresh out
the barrel to a 3 groove progressive depth .58 cal, which was done to many 1841S, including mine. However, if it has been deemed ok to shoot, give it a good soaking and cleaning first, then give it a go. I've had barrels with less than perfect bores that shot just fine.

 

[bob308]

when I worked with hoyt we relined a lot of springfields enfields and others done right you can never tell. you want to try one out I have a repro that he relined to .54. if you want to try shooting one like yours let m know.

 

[Artificer]

I have looked at a lot of Bobby Hoyt's relined barrels and it is almost magic how he/they did some of the work. On one original M1855 Rifle (not Rifle Musket) barrel, I saw it shortly after it came back from Bobby. Someone had cut about 8 inches off that barrel back in the old days and bored it out smooth to use as a cheap shotgun. Bobby "stretched" or actually replaced the cut off section to get it back to proper length and relined it. I went over that barrel with a jeweler's loupe in the sunlight and could not detect where the added barrel metal was joined. The "stretched" and relined barrel was as accurate as any and more accurate than most.


Ben,
Bobby can certainly tell you if the barrel would be safe to shoot as it is and/or possibly make recommendations on re-cutting or lining the barrel.

Some careful firing, cleaning and ensuring no additional damage to the gun. will not decrease the value of your rifle.

You may find this surprising, but I know of some original guns that are more valuable on the shooting market than they would be on the collector market in their current condition. An original gun that qualifies for International Muzzleloading Competition and shoots accurately, can be worth a good deal more as a shooting gun.

What I don't remember is if a lined barrel is acceptable for International Muzzleloading Competition in the "Original Gun" matches. I know an original barrel can be bored out and the rifling re-cut as long as the new rifling is correct for the period, though.

At the 1998 World Championships, one Team Member's Original Rifle did not pass "Scrutiny" as the Brits called it or the Inspection as most other events called it. The Inspector said that though the barrel had been re-rifled in the 19th century, it was "too late" of a style rifling for that rifle. So the Team Member could not shoot it in International Competition, but he wound up selling the rifle to another Team's Member who did not care if the rifle could be shot in that competition.

Gus

 

[crockett]

Ben- might be too valuable to shoot. There is a magazine published by the NRA called "Men At Arms" that is carried in a lot of bookstores. There are countless ads from antique houses dealing with original arms and I think many are in central/eastern PA. Get a copy of that magazine and call some of the dealers as far as care of the arm, etc.
I think the originals had a different caliber bore than the reproductions- so exercise due diligence if you want to shoot it.

 

[bstormer108]

I just finished disassembling the rifle and oiling it down. Everything is in surprisingly good shape for as long as it sat without being cared for. There is a very small crack in the stock near where the brass "L" is, but it doesn't look as though it'll be able to spread.

The bore took a fair bit of scrubbing and at least a dozen oiled patches to clean all the rust out, but I'm happy with the outcome. I mic'd the barrel and it came out at 0.540" on the nose. I also stuck a bore light down there and it looks smooth -- I expected it to be pitted due to the rust but it looks as though the rust was only on the surface. I'm going to get in touch with Bob Hoyt sometime this week to have him inspect it and make a recommendation.

I have been in contact with OGCA and they think they have someone who can inspect and appraise the rifle for me. I should be receiving a phone call before the end of the week.

Bob, in regards to your offer: that sounds fantastic. I'll get in touch with you once I button up a couple of these loose ends.