unusual pistol

[George]

Any pistol experts on the board? I have an unusual one, and have never been able to identify either the pistol or the type. It is a percussion of about 65 caliber, smoothbore, barrel 8.5”, tapered, slightly swamped and flared, almost certainly hand forged. It appears to be octagon to round with a wedding band, but the bottom of the barrel inside the stock is all round. There is a deeply stamped touchmark on the top flat at the breech with letters and symbols which I’ve been unable to decipher. There are no other marks under the barrel or anywhere else on the gun except possibly an "S" in a couple of places on the lock and on the ramrod. The most unusual thing about it is the lock. The hammer has a rearward projection which latches onto two projections, the sears, one for half cock, one for full cock, which exit the lock plate right behind the hammer. The trigger retracts those two projecting sears, releasing the hammer. The gun was originally of high quality, with well executed engravings, silver inlays on the barrel flats at the breech, engraved/sculpted wedding band, checkering on the grip, European walnut stock, metal ramrod with a filed worm on the end, sea shell bolster for the nipple and dolphin-head hammer. Here are some initial pictures. Any thoughts about the identity of this pistol, the type of lock, etc., will be greatly appreciated.

 

[rabjr]

A friend has one with an almost identical grip and checkering pattern, flinter, thats French. Dosan't mean yours is French but sure looks like a French gun.

 

[Curt LaManna]

I agree and think it's of French Mfg.
From the proof mark. Not Belgian.
Nice pistol! :thumbsup:

 

[Blizzard of '93]

nice pistol, just my opine swampy and longrifle are right about it being french made.

 

[JV Puleo]

I believe its Spanish, middle 19th century. Notice the unusual and very late use of a horizontal sear and the head of the cock sculpted to be an animal head.

 

[George]

Thanks for the responses. My initial impression was that it was French, too. Later, I learned that the Spanish used that type of lock or something similar in making most of their weapons. One thing which confuses me is that this is obviously a gun built some time after percussion ignition came into vogue, since it's a fairly sophisticated design, not one you would expect early in the percussion period. But, there can be little doubt the barrel was made in the flintlock period. Swamped and flared smoothbore barrels were not usually associated with percussion, so how did a quality flintlock barrel wind up in a quality percussion pistol? I had many conversations with a French Quebec man, Jan Hamier, very knowledgeable about European and especially French guns, who's main interest in black powder is collecting and studying French weapons of this period. He was firmly convinced the gun was from the late 18th or early 19th century and had been converted to percussion at a later date. He also said the silver inlays on the barrel were stylized deer heads, very typical of decorations used on guns made in the Kingdom of Bohemia, then a region of central Europe and Germany in what is now mostly Czeck Republic. His conclusion was:

"I have identified your barrel style and stamps, including the last one you put on your URL as typical Spanish style from mid XVIII, very early XIX th. The thing is that those barrels had such a good reputation that they were imported in Austria and, guess where: Bohemia. Two possibilities: Spanish barrel with Spanish stamps or Spanish-styled Austrian or Bohemian armourer stamps. The deep one with the arabic tumbstone with a crown and two rows of 3 letters is the guncrafter's stamp."

I've heard of the Spanish dog lock, the Catalan lock and the Scottish lock, all of which apparently function in a way similar to this, but have never found any useful information about this lock.

I've shot a fair amount of pistol in my time, smokeless and smoky, and I've never held one which fits your hand and points as well as this one. It seems like the kind of pistol which would have been designed for dueling. But, again the confusion, most dedicated dueling pistols had no provision for a ramrod. It seem like a civilian weapon, not a military one. It sure would be fun to figure out who used this gun and in what way it was used.

Spence

 

[George]

It appears to be octagon to round with a wedding band...

Is an octagon to round configuration common on early pistols? Most I've seen are either completely octagon or completely round, now that I think of it.

Spence

 

[George]

Is an octagon to round configuration common on early pistols?

Well, I answered my own question. I leafed through some books on early American and English pistols and found that Octagon to round barrels make up approximately one third of those shown. One third octagon, one third round, one third octagon to round in the 100 guns illustrated.

Spence

 

[curator]

The horizontal sear behind the hammer is generally Italian or Eastern Medeterainian. Spanish gunsmiths called this sear arrangement "LaMode." The Albanians, Serbs, Russians, and Turks might use this arangement around 1830-45. Certainly not French or Spanish. Look closely at the mark on the barrel, It might be the mark of the "Papal State." (just guessing since your pictures don't give enough detail)

 

[George]

Look closely at the mark on the barrel, It might be the mark of the "Papal State." (just guessing since your pictures don't give enough detail)

It's a hard spot to photograph. Do these help any?

 

[George]

Look closely at the mark on the barrel, It might be the mark of the "Papal State."

Two more shots, the first of the deeply struck mark, showing that there is something gold colored on the bottom of it.

The second showing that the silver inlays are of two different designs, 7 of what I've been told are stylized stag heads and a single larger, more complex one.

Appreciate any thoughts.

Spence

 

[curator]

The mark is not one that I recognize (I don't know everything yet)I would still bet on Italian or eastern mediteranian. As the main spring has a stirup and the sear is horizantal behind the hammer, I'd place it around 1840-1860. French gunsmiths almost never (never say never) used this kind of sear.

 

[George]

(I don't know everything yet)

Well, I'm deeply disappointed to hear that.

I appreciate your input, though, even handicapped as you are.

Spence

 

[shooyer_250]

nice pistol...i really don't have anything to say...the index said there had been 666 replies and i hate that number sooooooooo...i made it 667...what can i say, if i could walk i wouldn't do it under a ladder...LOL

God Bless

Lee

 

[wulf]

I sure would like to see/know how the sear works
under that box at the back of the lock. That is
almost as much a mystery as the guns origin...

 

[George]

I sure would like to see/know how the sear works
under that box at the back of the lock. That is
almost as much a mystery as the guns origin...

I haven't worked up the nerve to open that box, yet. One of these days. I agree, I would really like to see how that works.

I have written to a local arms museum asking if someone on staff can help identify the pistol, but no reply, yet.

 

[George]

The local museum I contacted is the Frazier International History Museum, which started life as the Frazier Arms Museum, and they specialize in arms and armament. I was pleased to get a response from them today saying they would be glad to help me with the pistol, so I sent off a big folder of pictures to get the process underway. May have to deliver the pistol to them, but that's OK, I'd really like to solve the puzzle of this pistol.

Spence

 

[Dymoke]

So nice to see something that doesn't say "Made in China "on it, eh

 

[Celt5494]

The design around the nipple screams middle eastern or at the very lest mediteranian. Other than than that who knows? I was puzzled by the feather ingraving as well but in my opinion was not made in North America. Looks like a pretty nice handgun though.

 

[curator]

The sear mechanism works by the pulling back on the sear arm by the trigger, which levers back a two-part lateral bolt that sticks through the lock plate and engages the back end of the actual cock or hammer. The upper "bolt" should have a deep recess that acts as a "safety" and the lower one is smooth. To retract the lower (full cock) bolt you must first pull back the half cock notched bolt above. This is sort of complicated but works despite the 40 pound trigger pull (a safety of a sort). The Spanish, Italian and eastern mediteranians (Turks, Albanians, Serbs, Croats, Libians, etc) loved it and carried it well forward of the miquelet/flintlock era.

The more I look at the deep "touch marks" the more I think "Papal States" about 1850---just a guess!