Twist to fast

[MikeHM]

From what I have read on this site, my Hawkan's 50 with a 1 in 36" twist is way to fast to shoot round balls.
But that's what I want to shoot, .495 balls with a .010 lubed patch. So whats going to happen to accuracy Etc?
I understand how it works with high power rifles, and fast twist like 1 in 8" vs short light and long heavy bullets Etc, but now Im talking about a round ball. What can I expect from this combination? And what can I do about it, if anything?
Thanks Mike.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Mike: You can shoot round ball with a 1 36" twist, but you just have to use less powder in some guns. It really depends on the guns. Its almost impossible to overstabilize a round ball, so go ahead and try it. Start with 35-40 grains, and work your way up from there.

 

[Blizzard of '93]

too much powder=too much velocity=blown and stripped patches, this applies to 1-48 twist also.

 

[MikeHM]

OK, that sounds like good news, what we dont want is the patch coming apart from the fast RPM when still in the barrel, right? so ill just back off on the load, I have been shooting with 50g of 2F, and its recoil is not bad. But ill back off, and see how the accuracy is. Ive only got about 25 rounds through it so far. So I dont know how well it shoots yet anyway, ill try 40g of 2F, and give that a go. I do have a crony, so should I be checking the velocity? And if so, about what should it be, from a 24" barrel.
Thanks. Mike.

 

[roundball]

From what I have read on this site, my Hawkan's 50 with a 1 in 36" twist is way to fast to shoot round balls.
But that's what I want to shoot, .495 balls with a .010 lubed patch. So whats going to happen to accuracy Etc?
I understand how it works with high power rifles, and fast twist like 1 in 8" vs short light and long heavy bullets Etc, but now Im talking about a round ball. What can I expect from this combination? And what can I do about it, if anything?
Thanks Mike.

If you don't mind, I'm curious what brand of Hawken you have that has a 1:36" twist? I have various hawken barrels made by TC and GM that are 1:48", 1:66", 1:70", and 1:72" twists. Is yours a fast twist LRH GM drop-in for a TC Hawken stock?

I use TC's load data charts for my loads, and use their maximum load data listed for round ball deer hunting loads in .45/.50/.54cals...TC's 1:48" standard barrels shoot their maximum loads very accurately...stands to reason that they would since they list the load data for them of course, so no surprises there.

Assuming you have a good quality, reliable condition muzzleloader built to nominal size land and groove dimensions, the best advice I can think of is this:

Get some Goex 3F, Hornady .490s (nominal size) and .018" TC lubed pillow ticking patches (nominal size).

Set up a target at only 25yds...paper plates are excellent and more importantly, cheap. Make a bright contrast half dollar size aiming point in the middle.

Shoot two groups of 5 from a bench holding and benching the rifle exactly the same way every time using 60, 70, and 80grns Goex 3F.

Clean the bore consistently the same between every shot.

If satisfactory, move out to 50yds and repeat.

Then you'll personally know what your own barrel will do.

 

[Zonie]

Although it doesn't show any roundball data with twists faster than 1:48 the Lyman Black Powder Handbook says that 40 grains of powder in a .50 cal rifle with a roundball will give a velocity of around 1200 FPS.
That should poke holes in paper and rabbits out to 50 yards without any problem at all. :grin:
zonie

 

[MikeHM]

Roundball, Its that Navy Arms we talked about last week, the one that has made in America stamped on the barrel. Remember its about 25 years old, but had never been fired before I got it, its now got a new rear sight that's correct for the front blade, and all was well, until the guy shooting next to me asked about the twist, and per the little booklet that came with it, its 1 in 36" I haven't checked it my self, I figured that was correct.
I do have .490 balls and thicker ticking patches, if you think that's what I should try. Im just now to the point of sighting it in, and working up a good target load. I will use it for punching paper at up to 100yds, not hunting.
Mike.

 

[Zonie]

Until you measure the rate of twist, you will never know what it really is.

If the gun was made about 25 years ago that would place it right about at the time that those "other things" with the fast twists were first being made.
Up until then, just about all of the guns being marketed were made for shooting roundballs or slugs that use the 1:48 twist or slower.

I would bet the 1 in 36 was a misprint.

 

[roundball]

Oh, OK...I didn't remember the 1:36" part, didn't connect the dots.

I mention using nominal size components so its a standard starting point with reasonable expectations that everything should work quite well...given a modern made barrel made to nominal specs...and not a one of a kind custom made barrel that may require a unique ball/patch combo.

If you've got some .490s and thick patching and run into unexplained difficulties, it might make an easier starting point for future discussions/assistance, etc...not an authority on the subject, just one way of approaching it.

 

[MikeHM]

Zonie, tomorrow Ill check the twist rate my self, then will know for sure.

 

[Blizzard of '93]

from what I've read 1-36 twist is designed for sabots, but will shoot some conicals.

 

[Runner]

I hunted squirrels out of a 1-32 twist using 495 roundball and 70 grains of 3f 777. That is a hotter load than I deer hunt with these days, and it was accurate enough to head shoot squirrels. A .500 ball would likely be even better.

 

[MikeHM]

Zonie, I checked it myself, and it is in fact a 1 in 36" twist.
So in your opinion would I be better off with .495 and .010 patches, or .490 with thicker patches? The bore from grove to grove measures .500. Or should I just try both at 50g of 2F, and go with what ever shoots the best, then start playing with the charge?
Thanks for any advice from all.
Mike.
PS: Runner, Im glad to hear you had good luck with a fast twist barrel, and .495, balls, as that's what I was planing to work with.

 

[Zonie]

You will only know after you've shot it.

1 in 36 might be a magic twist that does everything right.
As I've mentioned before, IMHO when it comes to shooting roundballs the depth of the rifling is a lot more important than the actual twist rate.
If the rifling is fairly deep it might work very well with all powder loads under a roundball.

 

[Runner]

Most fast twist barrels have shallow rifling that requires a tight load. The 495 shoots fine but the 490 noticably less so.

 

[Slamfire]

My White Mountain Carbine shoots prbs acceptably with 50 grains of FFg Wano and an 0.018" patch. I haven't done any real development as I also have a Renegade with a 66" twist. :v

 

[MikeHM]

Next trip, ill do some testing with both .490s and .495 with various patches, and both 40 and 50g of 2F and see if I can tell which it likes the best. In this respect its a little like working up a good load for my 6BR, except I got it to shoot in the .2s and .3s at 100, but in this case ill settle for 2 to 3" lmao.
Thanks again for the help, and advice.

PS: After 55 years of shooting, and 42 years of reloading, and all of 3 weeks of black powder shooting, I'm still asking question, but black powder is a whole different critter.

 

[gmww]

Next trip, ill do some testing with both .490s and .495 with various patches, and both 40 and 50g of 2F and see if I can tell which it likes the best. In this respect its a little like working up a good load for my 6BR, except I got it to shoot in the .2s and .3s at 100, but in this case ill settle for 2 to 3" lmao.
Thanks again for the help, and advice.

PS: After 55 years of shooting, and 42 years of reloading, and all of 3 weeks of black powder shooting, I'm still asking question, but black powder is a whole different critter.

I too had to adjust to ML. With my 7Br I'm used to .2" groups from a pistol.

 

[Zonie]

But let's admit it. Black powder is a lot more fun.
Where else can you combine two enjoyable hobby's like shooting and reloading all at the same time?
zonie

 

[Runner]

Get some real black, wads, thinnest commercial patches you can find, non-magnum primers, a hotshot nipple and as close to bore sized balls as you can lay hands on for testing. Start around 35 grains. That is enough to fill most patent breech areas and to fill the airspace behind a ball. Load the gun with one thin patch as you move upwards on the powder until you find the spot where it tightens up and then go past that until the gun says too much. Using wads lets you make patch adjustments without having patches burn thru. I have .005 patches here that I found this spring by accident. Stack the thin patches testing at the powder level that showed the most promise. When you find the patch thickness that does the best for your use, start looking for a good patch material that is that thick. Then buy a whole lot of balls and a case of powder! You have to test all the various lubes now!
If the patch does not fail, in most fast twist barrels, the large ball/thin patch with a wad under it is going to be pretty close to where you want to be. 70 grains of 3f 777 under a 495 in a commercial prelubed .015 patch would easily shoot into an inch at 50 yards out of the barrel I was using. I have started to use crumbled up pre-lubed shotgun cushion wads under my patches instead of a wad. I pinch off a piece and ram it before the ball. There are better ways, but the shotgun wads are cheap and easy. All of my testing was done swabbing between shots with a wet patch on both sides and a dry patch on both sides.
I need to sit down and spend a day shooting soon myself!