Swiss Blackpowder

[Marc Adamchek]

I've been hearing or copming across mention about Swiss BP, in particular the grade 1.5

Could anyone fill me in on this stuff? I've always been a strictly GOEX guy, but I'll try anything if it's reccommended enough.

I see that Powder Inc. carries it, but i couldn't gain access to the prices for some strange reason.

Anyway whagt has been your experience with this stuff?

 

[Jason Lewis]

1.5F swiss is the favorite powder for long range shooting with either LRML or BPCR. some guys use swiss 2F and very few swiss 3F. but by and large, most of us use 1.5F it has much more energy than goex. not that goex is bad powder, it just doesn't really have the ommf needed for big long range guns. for example, in my whitworth behind a 540grn bullet, 90 grn of 2F GOEX chronographed at 868fps. the same load of Swiss 1.5F chronographed at 1280fps.

 

[Herb]

I've used Swiss 3F, 2F and 1.5F in .58 caliber with round balls, and also in .54 caliber. What caliber are you shooting?

 

[Marc Adamchek]

Herb - Primarily, I'm looking to try the powder in my double rifles at the higher end of the the spectrum; .635 calibre and .72 calibre, although if I find it working well there I'm sure I'll be tempted to try it in other rifles of a lesser calibre, like .50 and .45. I get the idea it's not a powder for smoothbores(?)

 

[Herb]

Here is a Bill Large.58 Hawken that I worked up loads for an elk hunter. He killed a great six pointer, used 130 grains of Goex 3F! If you enlarge your screen (lower right corner of mine, says 100%, can click on it to enlarge), you can read all the details. (50 yard bench rest here).

This is a .58 fullstock flint Hawken I built. Some 100 yard test targets here. With heavy charges, Swiss powder gives hard fouling such that you have to wipe the barrel after every shot. Can't get the third or fourth ball down without wiping. I don't know how it behaves in cartridge cases, but it must work OK, or maybe you wipe after every shot. I used this rifle for elk hunting, and my load was 140 grains of Goex 2F and a roundball.

 

[Jason Lewis]

Herb - Primarily, I'm looking to try the powder in my double rifles at the higher end of the the spectrum; .635 calibre and .72 calibre, although if I find it working well there I'm sure I'll be tempted to try it in other rifles of a lesser calibre, like .50 and .45. I get the idea it's not a powder for smoothbores(?)

swiss works fine in smoothbores, i use it exclusivly now. my 20ga shoots great with 2F. the 1.5F would be appropriate in your .72 rifle, but for the lesser caliber i would use 2F. i have never had a problem with a hard fouling ring in the breech. but every gun is different.

 

[Herb]

It is only with heavy charges that the hard fouling develops. Maybe more than 100 grains. Less than that, no fouling problem. I don't remember if I had the problem with Swiss 2F with heavy charges.

 

[Marc Adamchek]

Thank You very much, gentlemen. You've helped me make some decisions, and I'm going to be ordering some Swiss right after I get off this forum. Herb, it looks like you're not timid when it comes to working up a load - you're pushin' a lot of powder there! It's always great to see the young at heart enjoying life. God bless you - Marc

 

[Herb]

These loads were worked up for elk hunting. Elk are not like a 150 pound whitetail deer the next corn row over, when you can get a tag every year, or even multiple tags in some states. Don put in for this trophy hunt area 14 years. He had to be prepared to take whatever shot presented. It might be a 1000 pound bull plastered with mud from his wallow and reeking testosterone, trotting through the junipers or aspen, at any range. Don had only seconds to take this shot at 45 yards and he broke the bull's shoulder. You can read his story in the ML Hunting forum here, dated 11/19/09, "Utah Trophy Bull Elk...". My elk hunt I wrote up in The Hunting Journal on 10/12/09, "Flintlock Elk Hunts".

 

[zrifleman]

Something wrong with your chronograph? Thru my Gibbs 520 gr PP using 100 grs of Goex 1 FG--1249 fps, 520 gr Pedersoli GG bullet using 90 grs of Goex Cartridge 1263 fps, .62 cal RB 340 grs using 120 grs 3 fg--1501 fps, .54 cal ML using 460 gr conical and 80 grs Goex 3 fg 1225 fps. The energy is there! In fact real side by side comparison with Goex and Swiss shows vary little real difference in velocity. Only thing is Swiss cakes worse and makes a little harder fouling. Swiss---not worth the extra money!

 

[Walks with fire]

Just my opinion of course but if you are shooting a short barreled hunting rifle Swiss is worth the price plus the pan stays much drier in a flinter. Swiss is 200+ fps faster than Goex.

 

[Jason Lewis]

Something wrong with your chronograph? Thru my Gibbs 520 gr PP using 100 grs of Goex 1 FG--1249 fps, 520 gr Pedersoli GG bullet using 90 grs of Goex Cartridge 1263 fps, .62 cal RB 340 grs using 120 grs 3 fg--1501 fps, .54 cal ML using 460 gr conical and 80 grs Goex 3 fg 1225 fps. The energy is there! In fact real side by side comparison with Goex and Swiss shows vary little real difference in velocity. Only thing is Swiss cakes worse and makes a little harder fouling. Swiss---not worth the extra money!

that's great that GOEX is working for you. but you are comparing differant loads and different granulations to mine.

 

[Dave K]

Well, it is apparent you have different experience with Swiss than many of the others. There is a noticable difference in using the same amount of powder between the 2 powders. In my guns, it is really noticable both in performance and fouling. Though the price is higher, since I an using less Swiss for the same FPS, it is not as high as one first thinks. But hey, if you like the powder you are using, great! Don't worry, be happy.

 

[Marc Adamchek]

zrifleman - How do you like your Pedersoli Gibbs?Do you find it suitable only for the firing range, or can/do you take it afield? I've been tempted lately of buying one. I just bought my .72 Kodiak and I'm preparing to shoot that, and all of a sudden I bacame aware of the Gibbs, which is a very attractive rifle. The one thing I can't understand is why they don't include a ramrod/wiping stick with it. Makes no sense. I've read that it hasn't sold anywhere near what they expected in the states. If I can stumble across one with an attractive sale price I know I'll besorely tempted to get it.

 

[Jason Lewis]

the Gibbs is a target rifle, it didn't need a fixed ramrod.

 

[Dphar]

I've been hearing or copming across mention about Swiss BP, in particular the grade 1.5

Could anyone fill me in on this stuff? I've always been a strictly GOEX guy, but I'll try anything if it's reccommended enough.

I see that Powder Inc. carries it, but i couldn't gain access to the prices for some strange reason.

Anyway whagt has been your experience with this stuff?

I don't use anything else except unless I have some specific reason like testing something.

Swiss is the only powder that is equal or nearly so to the old premium powders of the 19th century.
Goex is more like military powder of the time.
There are various reasons for this. Basically the charcoal is better there is nothing equal even available in the US, the percentage of saltpeter is higher, graphite is not used to coat the powder and more care is taken in making the powder.
It generally shoots better in all firearms. 1.5 f Swiss was meant for BP cartridge guns. But a friend uses it in RB guns with great results.

Using Swiss may require a slight reduction in the weight of charge. If over loaded it can produce fouling increases rather than its normal reduction in fouling. Most powders are not capable of getting the ignition temp this high.
I can shoot my Nock breeched 67 caliber rifle using 140-150 grains of powder many shots without wiping with swiss. Lower grade powders may clog the breech in 2-3 shots and the gun stops shooting.

It wins most if not all the BPCR competitions and many ML mathes due to its better uniformity shot to shot and lot to lot and the fact that it just plain shoots better.

Dan

 

[Dphar]

Something wrong with your chronograph? Thru my Gibbs 520 gr PP using 100 grs of Goex 1 FG--1249 fps, 520 gr Pedersoli GG bullet using 90 grs of Goex Cartridge 1263 fps, .62 cal RB 340 grs using 120 grs 3 fg--1501 fps, .54 cal ML using 460 gr conical and 80 grs Goex 3 fg 1225 fps. The energy is there! In fact real side by side comparison with Goex and Swiss shows vary little real difference in velocity. Only thing is Swiss cakes worse and makes a little harder fouling. Swiss---not worth the extra money!

If you can't tell the difference you are one of the few.
The only bulleted ML I shoot shoots a picket bullet and I have not clocked it.

My 38" barreled 54 flint rifle makes over 1900 with 90 gr of FFF Swiss and fouls almost not at all compared to Goex which is 100+ fps slower with 10 grains more powder. The Swiss load will shoot surprisingly small groups in this rifle, about 6-7" at 200 yards if the wind cooperates.
I shoot 75 in my 50 caliber right now but have not bothered doing any chrono work with the 50.
My 30" barreled 16 bore rifle using a .662 ball makes 1600 fps with 140 gr of FF Swiss. It does not like lower grade powders.
Swiss only makes hard fouling if too much is used in my experience. The 58 caliber is the only bore size I have seen this in, though I have never shot over 90 in my 54, it I tried 110-120 it might cause trouble too.
My 45-100 2.6" Sharps with 1.5f Swiss makes 1373 with a 530 PP and 100 grains. It will shoot MOA to pretty long range if I hold it right. It would likely make 1450 with a similar weight GG bullet if I could get 100 gr behind it. But its not a ML either.
Its the only powder I ever used that would duplicate the old factory ballistics with the same charge weight.

Dan

 

[TFoley]

1.5F swiss is the favorite powder for long range shooting with either LRML or BPCR. some guys use swiss 2F and very few swiss 3F. but by and large, most of us use 1.5F it has much more energy than goex. not that goex is bad powder, it just doesn't really have the ommf needed for big long range guns. for example, in my whitworth behind a 540grn bullet, 90 grn of 2F GOEX chronographed at 868fps. the same load of Swiss 1.5F chronographed at 1280fps.

My identical load gets me an average V of 1267fps with a Lyman multi-groove bullet, and 1160fps with the 600gr swaged Polisar bullet.....of which I now have only ten left.

Sadly I have to bum the powder off a generous pal - my house insurance won't let me store BP... x10

tac

 

[Jason Lewis]

those polisar bullets were great weren't they? i've got 4 left just for show.

 

[zrifleman]

Dan--Have you looked at Mike Venturino's book "Shooting Buffalo Rifles of the West"? He did a lot of testing on Swiss an Goex for comparison. Equal charges of Swiss and Goex went both ways for velocity without much advantage of one over the other. I keep accurate log books and mostly shoot bench rest due to a strike 7 yrs ago. I average 1-2 cases of powder a year in muzzleloaders and BPCR. After initially being on the Swiss bandwagon, I fell of for three reasons---accuracy was no better than Goex, fouling was more of a problem, and last but not least--I couldn't justify the price. Our last order of Goex was $11.65 lb with no S&H or hazmat. I paid about $17.00 for Goex Express with hazmat and shiiping.