slow twist 36

[smokeum54]

i have a cva mt. rifle with a douglas .36 barrel. it has a slow twist 1 turn in 60 to 66, i havent measured it exactly but the ramrod with a tight patch makes every bit of 1/2 turn going in and coming out.
at 25yds (benched) it will put shot after shot (randomly) in a 2.5 inch circle but will not make a tight group. ive been using .350 balls and goex 3f. havent tried 2f, always found it to be to dirty in small calibers.

powder charge 10-50gr in 5 gr increments.
cotton patches .010 .012 .015 .018 .021
lube, spit, bore butter, liquid wrench, wd40, and grease (i do prefer to use spit in all my target loads)
tried with and without .125 thick leather over powder wad in most loads

the bore looks like new, no tight or lose spots when running patch up and down, the crown is smooth and evenly shaped all the way around, the sights are tight, the barrel hooks and beds in the stock smoothly and the wedge pins push in snug with your thumb.

ive owned a few other .36 guns with a 1 in 48 twist and within 20 min. i had them driving tacks.
any thoughts on how to get this thing to shoot a tight group?

 

[jdkerstetter]

In these slower twist Douglass barrels in small calibers you will find that they will shoot best with hotter loads. Increase your fff incrementally until your groups tighten.

Enjoy, J.D.

 

[smokeum54]

ive been thinking of using more powder but to be totally honest, if I need to use more than 50gr to get this thing to group good ill sell the barrel and buy one with a faster twist. just think its a waste to use that much powder to punch paper in a .36. I don't see why this thing wont group with 50gr, seems to me that it should be more than enough :idunno:

 

[Bill/Ms.]

Use a .360 ball, .017 patching, and 35-40 grains fffg.

 

[Rat Trapper]

A fast twist 36 or 32 caliber is way better than a slow one. The fast twist allows you to shoot the ball a lot slower and it then won't blow critters you wish to eat up.

 

[jdkerstetter]

Yep, I was up too late and missread your post....didn't see you'd tried loads all the way up to 50 grns. I think Pawbill is on to it...ball size looks like the only thing you haven't varied.

Good luck and enjoy, J.D.

 

[F.G. Ford]

As mentioned a .360 ball should work better.
Also a felt wad with dry lube over powder ( you don't want wet lube on your powder) and a tight ball & patch combination should give you one hole groups.
Fred

 

[Dphar]

It should shoot OK with something in the 35-40 gr FFF range. If the 350 does not work then try a tighter fit.
What do the recovered patches look like?
Have you tried resting the barrel/stock at different points?
Where the barrel is rested, how hard or soft the rest is, how the rifle moves on the rest can ALL effect accuracy or change the POI.
Changing the rest point from shot to shot can easily blow a group.
I would start with increased ball size, check the patching and how the gun is rested. Hooked breeches often need to be secured with a screw to give best accuracy even if they seem to fit fine.
Douglas used 66 as a standard twist in everything and the barrels all shot. Either you have managed to get a lemon or there is something that has been missed. Sights tight?
Dan

 

[Rifleman1776]

ive been thinking of using more powder but to be totally honest, if I need to use more than 50gr to get this thing to group good ill sell the barrel and buy one with a faster twist. just think its a waste to use that much powder to punch paper in a .36. I don't see why this thing wont group with 50gr, seems to me that it should be more than enough :idunno:

Lotsas good advice so far. I would suggest a bit more consistency in your tests. Your preference for spit is your preference although it is probably the poorest choice. Stick with a proven lube for testing. Find a good ball/patch combo through testing and fitting.
Using 2Fg won't gain you anything. Stick with the 3Fg.
A 1:66" twist in a small caliber might be tricky to work up to the sweet spot. My wife's .40 with a Douglas barrel (I haven't measure twist but presume it to be 1:66") likes 25 grains of Swiss 3Fg. Your milage might vary.
Swab between every shot to get consistency. Results not doing that will be meaningless.

 

[jamesthomas]

I don't know about using a .360 in a .36 cal. but you might try a .355 ball.

 

[BrownBear]

I think they're onto something with tightening the patch ball combo somewhat. If you want to live with a mallet in your hip pocket, a .360 ball could be made to work, I'm sure. But a .355 would be easier, even with a thicker patch.

Short term without spending more money, you might try stacking one of your .010 patches with a .015 to see if an even tighter combo holds promise. That would pretty well confirm in my mind that you will gain some ground, either with thicker patches or a .355 ball.

My only experience with a 1:66 36 such as yours was a bud's rifle, though a capper. Similar symptoms, and it wasn't until we tried a .355 ball with a super muslin patch that things finally came to life. I don't recall exactly, but I'm pretty sure it miked .015.

Super muslin is a tighter weave and seems lots tougher than "standard" patch material. It's saved my bacon a couple of times when I was forced to use .010 patches. No shredding, when almost everything else came out the bore in tough shape.

I'll add one more insight, if you're planning on using it for game. A faster twist generally lets me go down to some real low powder charges and velocities with superb accuracy, a bonus for me in shooting small game. My 36 cal is a 1:48, and it will virtually cut ragged holes at 25 yards with .350/.018 and 15 grains of 3f. Doesn't sound like much, but it flat explodes bunny heads.

 

[Bill/Ms.]

Well, I don't carry a mallet in my hip pocket. I have been using small caliber muzzleloaders for hunting and competition for over 40 years and I have never had a ML rifle that would shoot worth a darn with an undersized ball. The Douglas barrels were overbored .002-.004, a .32 actual bore size would be .322 to .324. I used a Douglas .32 for years shooting a .323 ball with .017 patching and Hoppe's no. 9 plus. With this combination, I killed many squirrels and won my share of matches- all without carrying a mallet in my back pocket. I am presently shooting a Green Mountain .36 caliber using a .360 ball, .017 patching and my own patch lube- I don't need a mallet for this one either.
With the old Douglas barrel, I settled on a load of 30 grains fffg; the GM .36 likes 35 grains Swiss fffg.When you head shoot squirrels, velocity doesn't matter.

 

[smokeum54]

lil pressed for time here so short and sweet reply, thanks for the advice guys, ill give it a try and see what happends. hopefully a tighter ball-patch combo will help. the .021 patch and .350 ball are pretty snug already but i think i can go a bit tighter.
i will ad, ive won more matches with spit patch than i can remember, wont give it up anytime soon

 

[curator]

A .36 caliber rifle shooting round ball needs a 1 in 48 inch twist to adequately stabilize the projectile at 1400-1600 fps. T/C Cherokee and Senecas were rifled with this twist and were quite accurate. Their .32s had the same twist and could not shoot as well as the .36s.

 

[Bill/Ms.]

The Douglas small caliber barrels with the 1:66 twist were some of the best shooting barrels ever made. The accurate flight of a round ball is a function of the RPM imparted by the barrel. Any spinning object has certain RPM's at which it is stable and a round ball is no different. With any barrel, the only variable you can control to obtain that RPM is the velocity of the ball, since you cannot vary the twist rate of the barrel.
With that being said, my previous comments were based on my experience shooting small caliber muzzleloaders, not speculation or theory. With the .36 I am presently shooting, I have found that just about anything I put down the barrel will give squirrel head accuracy at 25 yards. However, if I am to even hit a target at 50 or 100 yards, I have to use the load and ball size I stated earlier- .360 ball, 35 grains Swiss fffg, and .017 patching. The rifle shoots equally well using saliva as a patch lube or soapy water. (Since I started wearing dentures, the ready availability of saliva is a bit iffy.)