Sizing .451

Discussion in 'Percussion Rifles' started by nagantino, Jun 29, 2019.

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  1. Jun 29, 2019 #1

    nagantino

    nagantino

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    My third trip out with my PH Volunteer ended a little short...I could not get the bullets down the barrel.
    The gun came with a good supply of bullets which seemed to be lubed with Lee Liquid Alox and they all shot well. That should be the first photo. They dropped down the barrel easily. But when I cast my own this week they were the divil to get down the barrel.
    The mold and sizer came with the gun, which is a low number Birmingham Parker Hale, but seem to drop a bigger bullet. I can see it’s not the mould often recommend 451114.
    If I put them through a few times it seems to help but I thought once would be enough.
    So, would .449 drop easily? It feels good when started in the muzzle but I’m afraid it will drop in.

    1. Is LLA acceptable for lube.
    2. Is it normal to size the bullet a couple of times.
    3.What size is guaranteed to drop with little force.
    5. If I buy the Pedrosoli .451 mold is it the 451114.

    I look forward to your amnwers.
     

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  2. Jun 29, 2019 #2

    fleener

    fleener

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    I shoot a lot of GG and PP bullets in rifles like these. I do not shoot a PH however.

    I do not know of anyone using LLA for bullet lube for a gun like this. I use LLA for other bullets that are used in lever actions.

    I use equal parts of criso and bees wax, with a table spoon of olive oil for GG bullets like these.

    I size all my bullets and only size them once.

    I cant comment on your other questions.

    Fleener
     
  3. Jun 29, 2019 #3

    52Bore

    52Bore

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    1- I’ve used SPG for 2+ decades. Can’t help with LLA, but no reason it shouldn’t work.
    2- Casting may require sizing as lead alloy may vary as well as bore diameters from mfg..
    3- same as 2.
    4- but Lyman’s mold 451114. The Volunteer bullet. It will drop 451 with Lyman #2 alloy, but pure/other ally’s may be slightly different .
     
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  4. Jun 30, 2019 #4

    Kansas Kid

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    Liquid Alox is meant for smokeless powder. The harder your alloy the larger it will drop from the mold.
     
  5. Jun 30, 2019 #5

    Stantheman86

    Stantheman86

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    I use a Lyman .450 sizer as a "push thru" sizer and never had a problem with my P-H Volunteer. I've fired 50 bullets without cleaning, no problems.
     
  6. Jun 30, 2019 #6

    curator

    curator

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    Nagantino:

    Looking at your photos I suspect your mould blocks aren't closing all the way as your bullets are out-of-round by .018". Perhaps a fleck of lead on one or both faces is holding the mould slightly open or the alignment pins need to be adjusted. I have this mould and cast these bullets for my Dan Wesson .45 rifle. My Lyman #457121P mould is made so the top 3 bands are about .008 larger than the bottom 5 so these bands very slightly engrave on the rifling lands as it is loaded. The PH mould is designed for the PH Volunteer rifle and drops from my mould at .432/.440" when cast of 20/1 lead-tin alloy or about one thousandths smaller with a 40/1 alloy. They work perfectly in my rifle without sizing. It casts significantly larger with wheel weight or other high antimony alloys and does not shoot as well as the softer alloy. Sizing your castings to .001 less than bore (land to land) diameter will allow them to be loaded easily but, the less you have to size, the more concentric and accurate the bullets will shoot. Nothing wrong with Lee Liquid alox for lube if you wipe the bore with a damp patch after each shot. The bullet is designed to carry a large amount of "black powder-type" lubricant to deal with powder fouling and make subsequent loading without wiping possible. I use a home made 50/50 bee's wax/lard lube with success. A felt or card wad between powder and bullet helps with accuracy with my rifle.
     
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  7. Jul 1, 2019 #7

    Tobee

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    My lyman 451114 mold drops .451-ish soft lead bullets which are run through a .451 lube/sizer die and mic'd at .451. Lubed bullets are a drag fit in my Birmingham PH volunteer. I swab after every shot. No fouling issues with my homemade lube for BP (beeswax/lard/oil/dash of lanolin). Have no complaints with the 451114 bullet.

    Nagantino: your lyman 2641121 mold dropping .457-ish bullets? If so, think it would be necessary to size down to .450-ish by running it more than once through a sizer if using some kind of alloy. I try to avoid sizing bullets more than three thou; takes a lot of effort and the driving bands of the bullet tend to get distorted/ugly.

    Have no experience with .451 loverin Pedersoli molds. Do have a sharps .54 mold, which I think is well made. If I had a Whitworth, I'd get a the Pedersoli hexagonal bullet mold if only to try. In a heartbeat.
     
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  8. Jul 1, 2019 #8

    nagantino

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    Thanks for the help everyone. It's a learning curve. I have been sizing all the bullets I've made twice, and I can feel resistance even on the second sizing. They now measure .450 mostly, but one or two are .449. The only way try these of course is to take them to the range. I'll do that later in the week.

    Curator, I can't see any that my bullets are out of round, but yes, there is a slight chink of light between the two halves. I've taken it apart and tried breaking any edges that might cause this. Its a pretty good bullet mold with no signs of abuse.

    Tobee, my mold does indeed drop the bullets at .457 but I'm happy to resize twice.
    I asked about the Pedersoli mold because it's easily available in the U.K. and I'm happy to buy it IF, it has the same dimensions as the Lyman 451114. I don't need two molds that are not the bullet fit I need.
    I had hoped that someone would have used the Pedersoli mold because there seem to be plenty using the Pedersoli Volunteer.
    I'll report back when I try the bullets I've made.
     
  9. Jul 1, 2019 #9

    TFoley

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    Three of us here shoot either a three or a two-band .451 Volunteer - ALL are low-numbered P-H rifles. We all use the same bullet made by the one guy with an endless source of lead and the time to make the Lyman bullets that fall from the mould provided by P-H with the rifle, AND using the sizer provided. Lube is 50/50 beeswax and tallow/neatsfoot oil, with a thin card wad made from the cardboard doo-dad that you get in the new shirt packaging. Loads are NEVER less than 80gr of 3Fg. Cleaning the bore between shots - where permitted - is carried out.

    And BTW, there should be absolutely ZERO gap between mould halves.
     
  10. Jul 1, 2019 #10

    nagantino

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    My rifle is the most fun I've had in ages and accurate of course. My issues arise from watching the videos by Capandball and Britishmuzzleloaders. They show the bullet dropping with no effort, which they recommend. Mine don't. Just a niggling thing to a newcomer. Perhaps you could ask your friend which mold he has?
     
  11. Jul 1, 2019 #11

    TFoley

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    Mr Németh uses the Pedersoli mould and sizer, and Rob has a custom mould, AFAIK. Shooting the bullets that OUR Rob here makes, they don't exactly fall down the barrel, but they go down effortlessly under the weight of the range rod. I'll ask about the mould - although I should know, since it used to be mine, but our Rob is a professional roofer, with endless amounts of lead of all ages, hence his getting the casting job. Right now, I have about a hundred pre-Atomic Age bullets made from a chapel porch roof...

    Edit - our mould is Lyman 451114.
     
  12. Jul 1, 2019 #12

    nagantino

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    Thanks TFoley. I was hoping you would say it was the Pedersoli mold cos Henry Krank has it. The Lyman 451114 is a bit harder to find. And yes, I meant that the bullet I'm hoping for drops into the barrel with the weight of the rod.
     
  13. Jul 2, 2019 #13

    52Bore

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    451114 is the old number, the new number starts with 26.., I believe. Just search Lyman Volunteer mold as you'll find it for sale from companies like Midway, etc..
     
  14. Jul 2, 2019 #14

    TFoley

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    Nae bother, Jimmy. You gots to remember that our rifles are well north of 40 years old, and back then, that was the mould that came with them. I got another identical mould when I bought my P-H Whitworth in 1986. And the push-through sizer.
     
  15. Jul 2, 2019 #15

    nagantino

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    OK Everyone......allow me one more newguy question. What is the difference between the Lyman 451114 mold and the one I have, Lyman 457121 mold. They have to fit a .451 barrel so is the 451114 smaller than the 457121 or lighter or what?
     
  16. Jul 2, 2019 #16

    Zonie

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    If the Lyman molds you have use their normal numbering system your 451114 mold should make bullets that are .451 in diameter. The 457121 mold should make bullets that are .457 in diameter.

    Of course, the actual bullets might be a little different than the mold number indicates because different lead alloys shrink differently when they solidify. Also, the temperature of the melted lead can effect the final size of the cast bullet.
     
  17. Jul 2, 2019 #17

    52Bore

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    D519F29F-8526-488E-A5AB-ECCE0C53DEAB.jpeg 939B75E7-59EE-4280-8A80-38A5B4C802C8.jpeg
     
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  18. Jul 2, 2019 #18

    nagantino

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    52Bore.........all is clear now. Thanks
     
  19. Jul 3, 2019 #19

    nkbj

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    Lyman made some 457121 molds for the .451 rifles of smaller diameter without changing the numbers.
    I swapped even with a fellow years ago that needed .451.
    His cast .457 and mine cast .451. Win-win for both of us.
    Some day I'll get around to using it in my .458 bore diameter TC New Englander.
     
  20. Jul 10, 2019 #20

    nagantino

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    After a day at the range with some bullets cast from the 457121, I thiought I would report back. I took all the bullets cast a few weeks ago and resized them twice. Some resistance can be felt even at the second try. I lubed some with beeswax and Vaseline with a crayon for colour, and some with Lee Liquid Alox. All shot well and dropped into the barrel with just a little help. The easiest loaded was were those coated with LLA. Not like the last time, when I gave up after only a few shots. So that's good.
    Reading about casting, it seems that if I cast, just short of a frosted bullet, the bullet will shrink. Hot alloy, smaller bullet. I'm talking thou of course, but I like it when the bullet drops easily.
    I have not been able to get an answer about the Pedersoli .451 mold, that is, is it the equivelant of the Lyman 451114. I was told it was 520 gr.
     

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