Since Muzzleloaders can be loaded weak...

[Tb54]

has anyone “accidentally” found out how weak a load or small a powder charge, would be minimum and still take game? Someday it may be nessesary to keep it subsonic. Back in the Cold War days, it was one of my original reasons for getting a muzzleloader. I always planned on heavy lead, light charge, like a subsonic, 500 gr maxi ball (in my .54)

 

[Le Loup]

has anyone “accidentally” found out how weak a load or small a powder charge, would be minimum and still take game? Someday it may be nessesary to keep it subsonic. Back in the Cold War days, it was one of my original reasons for getting a muzzleloader. I always planned on heavy lead, light charge, like a subsonic, 500 gr maxi ball (in my .54)

The thing is that the larger the game, the larger charge you need to kill it cleanly. Having a wounded animal run off is of no use & you have lost powder & lead. Better to carry more gunpowder in gunpowder bags, the weight is less than in other containers & it weighs less than carrying extra lead. Carrying a ball mould & a lead ladle will enable you to reuse spent lead from shot game, so you will not have to carry so much weight in lead.
One large beast will keep you going for a long time, dry what you can't eat in one meal. Dried meat is light & can be carried or stored.

https://woodsrunnersdiary.blogspot.com/2018/11/the-gunpowder-bag.html

Buckshot mould.

My round ball mould & lead ladle.

I hope this helps or is of some interest.
Regards, Keith.

 

[Artificer]

When questions like these come up, I always think of the time my best friend in life was teaching a newbie about loading and shooting a Bronze Frame Repro 1851 Colt Revolver. They were only using 10 grains of powder and had a target put up on an old tree trunk that was dead.. However the other friend occasionally noticed what he described as a sound of a bee or hornet buzzing past them. When he asked my best friend in life about it, his answer was "Light Load, Hard Tree....." What was happening was the ball would occasionally bounce off the dead tree trunk, instead of lodging in it, and bounce back towards them. After that, they loaded more powder.....

In the range of powder that is normally shot in a ML rifle or gun, there are always two "accuracy" loads, one light and one near or at full charge. For example in my Douglas Barreled .45 cal. full stock rifle, the low accuracy charge is 42 1/2 grains of 3Fg while the "hunting" accuracy load is 80 grains. The lower accuracy load was/is fine for squirrels and rabbits, but I never trusted it had enough killing power for deer to make a clean one shot kill.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

Keith,

Good point about always carrying a mold in your shot pouch. Though I realize that people in the period who were only "day hunting" not far from their home might not have done it, I always considered those who went deeper into the woods for longer periods, would certainly have carried their ball molds in their Shot Pouches. That' way, instead carrying it on a horse that might run away or lose it when crossing a river OR if one had to run quickly from hostile humans and not have time to get to their horse, or their horse was stolen, one would always have it when needed.

Gus

 

[Tb54]

I know a.22 short, from a rifle, will kill deer sized game, and smaller, but marksmanship is critical. If I were ever going to use a subsonic .54 projectile to take game, I would need to, and couldn’t afford to waste the shot by looseing the animal. I can use paper to prove accuracy, but I can’t prove effectiveness on a given animal, until I actually try it on one, and I’m not willing to do that. I can match the energy of the .22short, but the diameter of the larger bore comes into play also, and penetration may not be adequate. My speculation was to match the external ballistics of a subsonic round, with a much heavier projectile, but accuracy may not be found at that velocity, and a lower charge may need to be found to achieve acceptable accuracy. Mathematically, a 500 gr. .54 projectile delivers the same pounds per square inch, at 300 FPS that a 30 gr .22 at 900 FPS delivers ( muzzel energy, distance to target changes things). Effectively though, that’s untested, ( for penetration) therefore speculation. Just wondering if there’s any practical experience to support that speculation with.

 

[Tb54]

Kieth, if you retrieve your lead, you must not be getting full pass through, correct?

 

[Stony Broke]

Back many years ago when a friend got me interested in muzzleloading, he told me to not be afraid to use a small charge of black powder for target loads. We would use loads like 30 gr. of 3f in a 50 caliber behind a prb. Loads like this worked just fine for 25 yd. target loads. I kinda think a lot of guys probably use too much powder in theirs, but it's all a matter of personal preference. I have a couple of favorite hunting rifles one in .58 and one in .62. The .62 will shoot targets just fine with 30 gr. of 3f, but I think a guy would want a little heavier load for larger game, just to allow for more penetration. I have no doubt a lot of pioneers probably used as light a load as possible to stretch their powder supplies as far as possible. Light loads and reusing the lead can both be very practical.

 

[DAKurth1]

has anyone “accidentally” found out how weak a load or small a powder charge, would be minimum and still take game? Someday it may be nessesary to keep it subsonic. Back in the Cold War days, it was one of my original reasons for getting a muzzleloader. I always planned on heavy lead, light charge, like a subsonic, 500 gr maxi ball (

 

[DAKurth1]

Although I wouldn’t want to experiment with continuously shooting lighter and lighter loads until I found the load that wouldn’t kill the animal I was shooting at, my club did have a contest called “leave the ball in the can”, where the object was to find the load that, at 25 yards, would only punch through one side of a commercial size tomato can, but not go all the way through, leaving the “ball inside”.
Seems it was around 12 grains for a .50 cal.

 

[Britsmoothy]

20grn in my smoothrifle is handy on close up stuff. 15 can get the ball bouncing back off wood.


B.

 

[BrownBear]

I used to take my 50 and 54 cal Lymans and TCs down to 20 grains with complete success on snowshoe hare to at least 25 yards. Then wiser heads here on the site pointed out the patent breeches which acted as ball stops, leaving the balls sitting high with an air space along with the powder. Someone measured the capacity of the patent breeches and came up with 30-35 grains.

Not wanting to chance the effect of having a partially seated ball, I settled on 30-35 grains to completely fill the patent breech. Same effect as seating the ball right on the powder, but lots more geewhiz on snowshoe hare. You definitely don't want to take a body shot with that much powder. It's about like hitting the hare with a 22 mag hollowpoint.

On my guns with conventional flat breeches, I still go down to 20 grains and even 15 grains. While the slower ball sends a snowshoe hare cartwheeling, it's not so explosive on impact with soft flesh, to the point that I'll even take a body shot now and then if that's all that's offered.

 

[Griz44Mag]

I will attest that a 180gr 45 cal bullet at 880fps (muzzle speed) will kill a deer at 25 yards.
It was not BP, but the physics are the same.

 

[BrownBear]

I will attest that a 180gr 45 cal bullet at 880fps (muzzle speed) will kill a deer at 25 yards.
It was not BP, but the physics are the same.

Yeah. I was going to point that out but shied from too many modern references. In that line I'll make the vague reference that 250 (or 255) grain conicals at a standard velocity of 750fps from a 4" barrel has been my standard deer load for many a year. Never recovered one of the pills out to just beyond 50 yards, farthest I've been willing to make the shots. If I'd been counting, I've almost certainly killed more deer with that combo than with muzzleloaders and modern rifles combined, all one-shot kills with little or no tracking afterward. Hard to argue with those statistics or that kind of performance.

 

[hanshi]

For small game it's a "no-brainer". As a kid I use to be able to buy BB caps which were .22 cal BBs in a tiny case with no powder and just the prime in the rim. I killed oodles of squirrels with these guys but haven't seen them in ages. Pretty sure they were imported from Europe. They were basically a lead BB in a percussion cap, sort of a modern "Flobert" round. Velocity couldn't have been over 400 to 500 fps. Easy to duplicate in a .32 or .36.

 

[Carbon 6]

I've seen low velocity bullets bounce off bone. leaving only a small flesh wound.

Have you considered a bow and arrow? More lethal than subsonic bullets but can still bounce off bones too.

 

[wzroberts]

For medium sized whitetails, using .54 roundball, if I were in an emergency situation where I needed to conserve as much powder as possible, I would try to find an accurate load in the 650-700fps range and would keep my shots inside 60 yards. A shot to the heart/lungs area at that distance will have no problem breaking ribs, and will easily pass through the vital area.

If I just wanted a lower recoil, quieter hunting round, I would go with .54 roundball leaving the muzzle at 900-950 fps. That's still a 200+ grain projectile, and it's carrying enough energy to take out the biggest, baddest whitetail in my neighborhood (assuming proper shot placement, appropriate range, etc.).

 

[Tb54]

Yeah. I was going to point that out but shied from too many modern references. In that line I'll make the vague reference that 250 (or 255) grain conicals at a standard velocity of 750fps from a 4" barrel has been my standard deer load for many a year. Never recovered one of the pills out to just beyond 50 yards, farthest I've been willing to make the shots. If I'd been counting, I've almost certainly killed more deer with that combo than with muzzleloaders and modern rifles combined, all one-shot kills with little or no tracking afterward. Hard to argue with those statistics or that kind of performance.

Body shots? Or head shots?

 

[hanshi]

For deer I'd go ahead with my standard load; you can't hide from "the man".

 

[nhmoose]

For deer I'd go ahead with my standard load; you can't hide from "the man".

Not following the rules on this forum!

 

[Tb54]

Have you considered a bow and arrow? More lethal than subsonic bullets but can still bounce off bones too.

Yep, practicing up with them too, better with a rifle though.