Should I convert a Cap to Flint?

[PaulTBarton]

I have a used .50 cal T/C caplock that is in pretty good shape. I am thinking of converting it to flint, if a T/C flintlock lock (or L&R replacement lock) will fit. I have a hook breech flint plug that was purchased from TOTW. I guess the question is should I do the conversion? The challenge will be timing the plug, the rest seems really easy. This would give me another flinter and keep the .50 T/C out of the steel closet.

BartSr

 

[don hepler]

Timing the plug, is just a matter of doing the math. You screw the plug in, and if it bottoms out before the shoulder hits, you check the gap and remove that amount from the end of the plug. Now when you screw it in the bottom should touch at the same time the shoulder touches the back of the breech. So, let's assume it's out of time and the threads are 11/16-20. There are eight flats. 20 threads per inch, and 20 divided into an inch is.050 and divide 8 into .050 is just over .006 per each flat. Say you need to move it 3 flats, then file .018 off the face and .018 off the shoulder. Someone else might have a simple version.

 

[necchi]

Ya gotta be sure to read this part Bartsr;

So, let's assume it's out of time and the threads are 11/16-20.

TC has there own thread size 11/16-20, be sure the plug you have isn't 5/8-18

 

[PaulTBarton]

I don't know the thread size yet. But the above person is suggesting a method to figure things out with an example.

BartSr

 

[PaulTBarton]

Ya gotta be sure to read this part Bartsr;

So, let's assume it's out of time and the threads are 11/16-20.

TC has their own thread size 11/16-20, be sure the plug you have isn't 5/8-18

OK, got it, now I understand.

BartSr

 

[MSW]

Necchi, thanks for the post! I have a .54 which was bored to a 20 gauge/.62 smooth in percussion ... what I intended was flint, but a T/C flint .62 smooth are impossible to find, so I settled on percussion ... well when taking the nipple off the barrel, I felt an "oh, [insert cuss words]," and the breech plug began to turn and "ce la merde" (sp?) the whole thing came off with hand pressure ... now I have an "opportunity to excel," but here's the problem:

when I put the thing back on, it goes exactly a half a flat too far... now, if this were a build, this would be no harm done - simply take a very tiny bit off the breech face and advance to the next flat but in this case, all the stuff you add to the barrel after you time the plug is already there- -the sights, underlugs and so on ... [insert more cuss words]...

does anyone have any advice? should I plonk down some hard earned, God entrusted, overtaxed dollars at Track and buy one of their plugs and go for a flinter as I had originally intended... and if so, what about the finish?


aaaaaargh! I fear that I am rapidly losing my implacable calm!

 

[Artificer]

Do you have the normal TC hooked patent breech plug in that barrel? If so, what is the barrel diameter? What is the size and threads per inch of the breech plug in your barrel?

Have you figured out whether you want to get a replacement Flintlock Lock - should you decide to convert it to Flint?

Gus

 

[Artificer]

Something else to be considered. Just because something CAN be done, is it worth the expense to you to do it? (This is why I asked about getting a replacement Flintlock Lock.)

Gus

 

[MSW]

well, long story short, I came across a T/C stock at a gun show which I just couldn't pass up ... walnut with tiger stripe throughout ... and for a whopping twenty bucks. I already had the barrel, and there was a used percussion lock with "take me home" written all over it... a few parts later (and a Deerslayer trigger - worth the money!) and boom ... a percussion buddy for by beat up and much loved flintlock Renegade ... so now I have a percussion .54, a barrel in percussion that's the .62 smooth, and the original .50 flint from the 1980s ...

I'm leaning towards the flint plug for the .62 smoothie, if I can figure out how to get the thing timed ... hmmm ...

 

[Artificer]

OK, I am not completely following you as you are not giving enough information.

Is the breech plug that tightens too far the percussion breech? Or when you had the barrel bored out smooth, did someone (incorrectly) fit a flint breech to it?

Gus

 

[coloradoclyde]

when I put the thing back on, it goes exactly a half a flat too far... now, if this were a build, this would be no harm done - simply take a very tiny bit off the breech face and advance to the next flat but in this case, all the stuff you add to the barrel after you time the plug is already there- -the sights, underlugs and so on ... [insert more cuss words]...

Are you talking about the barrel face or the plug face.....I think (if I understand you correctly )I would take a tiny bit off the barrel face that should retard the plug when it seats....

This link might help. http://www.americanlongrifles.com/Workshop_Fitting_Breechplug.htm

P.S. by tiny bit I mean Dykem tiny....

hotoSmile:

 

[Alden]

Doing this might preclude you from buying another gun. Accordingly, unless you really won't even look at and fondle the T/C otherwise, sure, convert it...

 

[PaulTBarton]

MSW,
Just finding out that this .50 cal perc barrel is a Sharon barrel and I won't mess with it.

So, I'll be looking for a .50 T/C Hawken flinter 15/16ths barrel. This may push me to get that TOTW L&R replacement lock to go with it.

BartSr

 

[necchi]

MSW,
Just finding out that this .50 cal perc barrel is a Sharon barrel and I won't mess with it.

Does that got to do with the spade/diamond/x/or what ever, markings on the bottom?
The actual data for the TC barrel subcontracting has been lost and much of it today is a terrible mix of Urban Legend/Myth.
There are folks out there just just "know" what they are but nothing has ever been able to be documented,, the records where lost in a fire.

 

[Artificer]

when I put the thing back on, it goes exactly a half a flat too far... now, if this were a build, this would be no harm done - simply take a very tiny bit off the breech face and advance to the next flat but in this case, all the stuff you add to the barrel after you time the plug is already there- -the sights, underlugs and so on ... [insert more cuss words]...

Are you talking about the barrel face or the plug face.....I think (if I understand you correctly )I would take a tiny bit off the barrel face that should retard the plug when it seats....

This link might help. http://www.americanlongrifles.com/Workshop_Fitting_Breechplug.htm

P.S. by tiny bit I mean Dykem tiny....

hotoSmile:

CC,

I am not sure that suggestion is correct?

If the threaded front of the patent breech plug is bottoming out on the inside of the barrel, then all taking more off the rear of the barrel will do is open a gap between the barrel and front of the patent breech.

If the front of the breech plug is not bottoming out on the inside of the barrel, then taking more off the rear of the barrel may allow the barrel to turn even more beyond half a flat too far when tightened down OR maybe it will not turn depending on how tightly the face of the patent breech fits up to the rear of the barrel now.

It would be best if MSW put some Dykem Layout Dye on both the front end of the threaded plug and the front part/face of the patent breech plug and tighten it down, then unscrew it. That would tell him whether the threaded plug is bottoming out or not and how much the front of the patent breech is in contact with the rear of the barrel.

It MAY be possible to machine a shim out of barrel steel to get the threaded plug to bottom out earlier and then peen/upset metal on the face of the patent breech face forward to close the gap between them. It may not be though, if the gap is too large. If the gap is too large, then a shim would have to be added between the barrel face and the patent breech and filed to fit the outer dimensions of the barrel. But doing this is just going to see whether or not the Percussion Patent Breech can be corrected.

If MSW decides he wants to go flint on this barrel, then the hooked percussion patent breech will have to be replaced with a hooked flint patent breech, no matter how well or poorly the percussion breech fits. It would be well worth seeing how a properly sized and threaded flint patent breech would hand tighten up on his smooth barrel. It may be possible with a replacement flint patent breech, to fit/file/machine it so that both the threaded plug inside the barrel and the patent breech fit to the barrel will align correctly. An experienced person could see that just from hand tightening the replacement flint breech and measuring things.

Gus

 

[coloradoclyde]

Agreed......without having it in hand to diagnose..... :idunno:

 

[Artificer]

Agreed......without having it in hand to diagnose..... :idunno:

Exactly! Having it in hand is the best option, though good pictures might help a lot.

Gus

 

[MSW]

as regards photos, all I can say is mea maxima culpa ... trying to bend the photo thingy to my will ... this may take some IvyLeague cusswords!

bear with me

(by the way, sorry to have pretty much hijacked the thread)

 

[MSW]

Here are (I hope) some photos.

this is what the breech plug looks like when viewed from the muzzle end http://s1234.photobucket.com/user/msw54/media/NOV 1 2015 025_zpsjn6qx4go.jpg.html

this is the barrel and breech plug put together... note that the plug goes about half a flat past where it ought to be. This is hand tight - no wrench stuff. http://s1234.photobucket.com/user/msw54/media/NOV 1 2015 028_zpscaqcfvtx.jpg.html

This is a photo of the plug and the breech end of the barrel ...Note that there's not really a shoulder where the threads stop and the bore begins. http://s1234.photobucket.com/user/msw54/media/NOV 1 2015 027_zps2nw1rk5j.jpg.html

sorry I haven't been able to figure out how to simply make the photos appear on the post ... being a luddite has its downside
:slap: :slap: :slap: :slap: :slap: :cursing: :redface:

 

[PaulTBarton]

From those photos, it appears that the plug/barrel seal is at the barrel end, at the ledge on the plug face, not inside of the barrel on a ledge. The front of the plug is not scratched or marred in any way. Funny way to plug a barrel. I found a Spanish barrel plugged the same way.

BartSr