shot load question

[ursarojo]

Hi guys; my first post here. I have fired my 54 percussion for years and am going to venture into the realm of the dreaded Flint Lock.
So have aquired a brown bess 75 cal from TOTW. I got a .715 and a .735 lyman RB mold. but I would like help with a shot load. Can yall help me with info on a load for say 7 1/2 shot?
thanx in advance for info.

Steve M

 

[Homesteader]

I'm not as experienced with the smoothie as a lot of the guys here, but when I use shot in my Bess I start with a balanced load. (Same amount / measure for powder and shot.) Usually a 90 gr measure. Then I generally go a little heavier on the shot. Seems to work pretty well. Good starting point, anyway. Work it up from there.

 

[William Joy]

Homesteader has good advice....
I also would start out with equal powder and shot.
I shoot Grafs 3 F powder and use it for priming also. Experiment with the wad colum. A good starting point would be 0.125 over powder wad, 0.50 fibre wad and then a 0.025 over shot wad. Try diffrent wad thickness colums and see what works for you. Personally I am at the moment using 4 overpowder wads instead of the overpowder wad, no fibre wad, 1 over shot wad. So my load is as followed:
3 dram ( approx 82 gr) 3F Grafs Black Powder, 4 0.025 overshot wads,1 1/4 oz # 6 shot, 0.025 over shot wad.

 

[paulvallandigham]

First, measure the bore of that gun with a caliper. You need to know the exact diameter to order the correct size wads. It can vary from 12 gauge( .729) to 10 gauge(.775). The nice thing about any ML shotgun is that you can always Load Them LIGHTER, by using less shot. With the cost of lead shot being what it is, that may be important, if you want to practice much. The Bess is not anyone's choice for a well balanced, wing shooting shotgun that I know about! :rotf:

You can start on the light side with a 2 3/4 dram powder charge( A dram is 27.5 grains), or 76 grains of FFg, and 1 1/8 Oz shot( If you are using an adjustable POWDER MEASURE, the 80 grain setting will give you about 1 1/8 oz of #8 shot) Velocity will be just under the speed of sound, 1062 fps, in the Hodgdon Reloading manual. The heaviest load listed for the 10 gauge is 4 1/2 drams( 124 grains) of FFg powder, and 1 1/2 oz of shot( 90 grain setting on your adjustable volume powder measure).( 1067 fps.) Keeping the velocity under 1135 fps is helpful in getting better patterns, when the barrel is not choked.

The 120 grain setting gives you 1 5/8 oz. of shot, and that is a lot of shove to your shoulder, particularly with that steel buttplate. Setting the powder measure at 124 grains would give you a tad more shot in the load.

Oh, the 76 grains setting will give you a little more than 1 oz of shot, and is more than adequate for game and targets out to 25 -30 yards, if you use the correct size shot for the game being hunted. I use #8 for dove, and clay target practice. I use #7 1/2 and #6 for rabbits, and squirrels when there are leaves on the trees. I use #5 for Pheasant and other birds, unless they are as small as a quail or dove, and then I return to using #8 shot. You can carry a bag or bottles of different size shot to the field with you, and make your adjustment on what you are hunting that day, or morning.

As to wads, I recommend you buy just Over Shot Cards, which are thin wafers about .010" thick, made of shirtback cardboard. Poke off-center holes in them with an awl, or other pointed instrument. In use, use 4 of them over the powder to seal the gases from the shot. After you pour down the shot, use 2 more OS cards to top the shot. This will insure that the shot load stays in place. Make sure as you put the cards in the barrel that you locate those holes so they don't line up together. To lubricate the bore, just carry a baggie with some pre-lubed cleaning patches, to run down the barrel After you seat the 2 OS cards on the shot. That will protect the barrel from rust during the hunt, allow the shot to slide over the barrel, rather than rub lead off on to the bore, and still soften the powder residue for easier cleaning.

The reason for using just the OS cards and not OP wads, cushion wads, and oS cards, is to simplify what you have to carry, and to use light weight wads that will quickly fall away from the shot column when they leave the barrel. The holes in the card allow wind to go through each hole and separate that card from the ones behind it. This helps to eliminate " donut-hole " patterns. Using the other combinations of wadding tends to create those donut hole patterns,as the heavier wads tend to follow the shot column after they leave the muzzle, bumping the back of the shot like a cue ball hitting the other balls on the break. Credit Jim Rackham for suggesting this OS-card-ONLY, loading technique, as a great solution to this problem.

I don't hunt with a Brown Bess, but I do hunt with both a 20 ga. Fowler, and a 12 ga. double barrel shotgun. With both, I carry a Range Rod for loading and cleaning, and do not use the Ramrod that came with the gun. In fact, I have removed the RR and the pipes from the DB shotgun, and the Fowler doesn't have a RR hole in the stock, or any pipes. I carry the rod behind by back, between my shoulders, , with the cleaning jag stuck under my belt, and the rod held to my back by the strap on my hunting bag. The handles stay above my head, which is no problem when hunting birds in open fields.

When walking through woods, I simply remove the Range Rod from my back and carry it along the barrel of the gun, held to the stock by my forehand. If a bird flushes( or the dog goes on point), I drop the the rod while I mount the gun, and cock the hammer. With only one shot, I stay where I am standing when the bird flushes, until after the shot, and I have reloaded the gun. No running around. I don't lose my rod, and frankly, its never been an issue. Considering the time it takes to reload any ML shotgun or fowler, If other birds flush, or the dog goes on point, there just is not much I can do until I am reloaded again, now, is there. :hmm:

Yes, you do miss some shooting opportunities hunting with ML shotguns, but you do get to see beautiful birds take to wing, and that is part of the enjoyment. If hunting was just about getting my daily bag limit, I would take my modern shotguns.

Because your Bess is not choked, its basically a 25-30 yard gun MAX! Don't be thinking about 40 and 50 yards shots, even with that large bore diameter. This is not a GOOSE gun, either, unless you can call them in very close.

Accept these limitations and then go out an have fun with the Bess and shooting shot loads. I will assure you that the first time you bag a squirrel, or rabbit, or pheasant with that gun, YOU will have earned a Trophy worry of a picture to be framed and shown to your friends. They won't believe you possibly shot anything with a Brown Bess. :hatsoff:

 

[Many Klatch]

Homesteader: a balanced load like everyone says will work well. I use 90 grains of 2F and 90 grains of 7-1/2's. I have shot my Bess with an overpowder wad, a cushion wad shot and an overshot wad. I also tried it with two overshot wads, shot and one over shot wad. I have tried it with an overpowder wad shot and an overshot wad. To tell you the truth I couldn't tell any difference all three combinations broke birds.

Many Klatch

 

[paulvallandigham]

Many, that is nice, but did you actually pattern these different loads on paper? And at what range did you break targets? I can put about anything in a shotgun barrel and break clays from the 10 yard trap line. That is not telling me much at all about the load, only that I have a lot of experience breaking clay targets. :hmm:

 

[bingo1952]

Hey, if it breaks clays and kills the birds it don't really matter where the shot that doesn't hit the target goes and how it is dispersed. :bow:

 

[Capt. Jas.]

Many, that is nice, but did you actually pattern these different loads on paper? And at what range did you break targets? I can put about anything in a shotgun barrel and break clays from the 10 yard trap line. That is not telling me much at all about the load, only that I have a lot of experience breaking clay targets. :hmm:

And paper tacked to a board will not show everything some contend it will either unless being patterned for something sitting still like a turkey. Moving targets are a different story due to shot string. All those pretty holes that might display as a nice pattern on paper did not reach the target area at the same time the target was there.....even more so with something crossing more than just a trap shot. :thumbsup:

 

[ursarojo]

WOW! :hatsoff:

What a friendly bunch. Thanx for the reply's guys.

I measured the bore and it comes out at .740.

the circle fly sizing chart shows the 12 gauge bore at .729 and their wad for it is .740.
So I'm guessing the circle fly 12 gauge is the one I want for wads and cards, correct?

This is really going to be a lot of fun. I never shot a flint before and didn't even think about shooting shot out of a rifle. I think I can really get into this smooth bore stuff.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Yes, but Bob Brister did exhaustive testing of loads on moving targets, and you can find out all about it, and how those patterns correlate to what you get from a stationary pattern board in his book, " SHOTGUNNING: THE ART AND THE SCIENCE." He did this work with the range at Western Ammo company in Alton, Illinois, using their shells, and staff to operate a car pulling a trailer on which were mounted many targets, so he could do testing on both sides of the targets as the car drove back and forth. They tested patterns at various speeds going at right angles to the shotgun. He determined not only the actual lead that was needed to hit a bird flying across the muzzle, but also the eliptical character of the pattern of shot at that long range, and the length of the shot string at various velocities.

I concede that shooting a pattern board is only going to give you an accurate look at what that shot will do out of that gun with that load combination for stationary targets. But, after you see the results in Bob's book, you will understand the correlations that can be made between stationary target patterns, and patterns on passing targets. The pattern board is still the best test medium we have, and is way too under- used by most shotgun shooters.

I have hunted with too many shooters who have never put their guns on a pattern board, and can't figure out why they can't hit a bird today for love nor money! When we do get them to a pattern board, and they find out how far off the pattern is from POA, its a surprise that they ever hit a target at all! Then, they learn something about stock fit, the eye as the rear sight, the need to learn to mount a shotgun consistently to be able to throw a pattern consistently to the same place with each shot.

 

[Capt. Jas.]

Have the book, read the book, knew Bob. He is sorely missed in the shooting world. He was quite a sporting clays shooter and probably one of the best PR guys for the sport.
A pattern board can be used for point of aim testing, point of impact testing,shot pattern testing.
The pattern board is still the best medium, I agree.... but many read more into it than they are actually getting out of it when testing shot pattern if they dont consider a moving target and the fact they are looking at two dimensions. :hatsoff:

 

[paulvallandigham]

Oh, I agree. I think way too much weight is given to the edges of patterns, for instance. If you take a close look at those pellet holes in the edges, you can often see that the pellet had a flat on it from rubbing against the bore, or from being deformed by a high pressure powder charge. But most people won't do the close " LOOK ", and miss out on this information. That is why I talk about the core 20 inch circle of the pattern, rather than a larger 30 inch pattern.

The one exception was when I relieved the throat on one of my modern shotgun barrels, and immediately saw that the edges became less ragged, and more round, with more shot in that core of the pattern, and a visibly more even distribution of shot in the whole pattern. On a hunch, I used that tapered reamer to relieve the throat on my deer slug barrel. The result was a dramatic shrinking of my groups, and a surprisingly more accurate barrel and 50 yard groups. I have shot 50 yard groups off-hand, using traditional Foster slugs where all the holes could be covered with a silver dollar. From a bench, I have done even better.

Since there is no need for a throat in a BP smoothbore, you have to try other things to tighten patterns. Using FFg powder vs. FFFg powder produces lower pressures, and tightens the pattern, while increasing pellet counts. I am considering ordering a pound of cannon powder( Fg) to try in my 12 gauge shotgun to see if this reduces chamber pressure even more to improve pellet count.

I am trying greasing the bore after loading the gun, to see if I can improve pellet counts by eliminating the rubbing of the outside pellets against the bore. Next will be using buffering agents in the shot to protect the shot, and then buffering agents together with paper shot cups. I can get a reasonable pattern with the first shot out of a clean barrel, but unless I use a bore brush to remove lead after each shot, successive patterns get worse.

It goes on. To protect the pellets from being deformed on ignition, or from rubbing against the bore, a paper cup has to be relatively thick, just as the shot cups used in modern shotshells are thicker for use with steel shot. But thick cups don't release the shot very well or uniformly unless they are slit on the front end. I think the current problem with paper shot cups is figuring out how many and how long a slit needs to be made in the cups to allow the shot to separate from the cups at the lower velocities of BP loads. Increasing the pellet count in the core pattern is a worthwhile goal, and any improvement with a cylinder bore shotgun is going to mean more game brought to bag.

 

[Many Klatch]

Paul, I don't know how far away the clay birds were. We were shooting informally. I shoot from the low gun position, so the birds get a little farther from me than people that shoot with the gun already mounted to their shoulder. As a long time round ball shooter I find that if I mount the gun and then call for the bird I spend too much time trying to get a perfect sight before I pull the trigger. If I hold the gun at my hip and then yell pull I'm in too much of a hurry to worry about perfect leads. It works for me, I can usually get 15 of 21 at a skeet range that way and I almost always get a flushed bird. I have never been hunting and flushed a bird when I had the gun at my shoulder so I like to do the low gun position as my practice.

Many Klatch