Shooting Bag Strap Attachment Point"

[Greenjoytj]

I'm ThInking of designing a new shooting bag and can't decide on the best place to attach the should straps to the bag.

I could put the straps not the back but I thought that would interfere with opening the bag flap all the way back for a clear view to the interior.

Sided gusset attachment would allow the bag flap to fold all the way back to get it out of the way.

I'd like the bag flap to be able to keep rain out the the interior so I was thinking to two short inward facing gusset flaps to keep rain out and stuff from rolling out should the bag tip over.

Right now I'm using two bags, a Tandy kit shooting bag I assembled (stitched together). It's too narrow not enough guest width to easily get your hand into. It lacks organizational pockets to keep items separated and easy to find.

My large possibles bag which I sometime take out alone to use as a combo shooting bag possibles bag is actually a "William Joseph Old School Satchel" flyfishing shoulder bag 12.5in x 16in x 6in. Yes it big but easy to carry and nothing will fall out when it's wiped up and its very weather resistant being intend for fishing.
http://www.williamjoseph.net/gear.php?userChoice=Satchel

This bag zips open wide, gator mouth style so it very easy to see inside The disadvantage it the mesh pockets inside snag most muzzle loading accoutrements.

Maybe a custom drop in insert with custom pockets and slots to fit the stuff is normaly carry. I could make a mockup with bristol board staples and glue so I don't waste a lot of leather.

 

[necchi]

For a shooting bag you really don't need a clear view of the interior.
Just a few items needed for shooting should be easy enough to find by "feel".
A common way is to locate the strap on the back of the bag, angled slightly outward so the strap will fit over the shoulder without a pucker created at the bag.

 

[Billnpatti]

That bag, while it may be great for fishing, is just not good for muzzleloading. As you say, the mesh will hang up on the stuff that you put in it. You don't need a whole sporting goods store in your bag, just a few "necessary" items. Too many things make it difficult to find what you want when you need it. Take a look at these bags http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Search.aspx?search=bag and https://www.dixiegunworks.com/adva...=2a&&page=1&osCsid=gh1tamj625onrv71ju9ta6ite4 for ideas on what you really need for a possibles bag. If you feel the need to carry other things "just in case" make or buy a bag, haversack or satchel to carry over your opposite shoulder. The best idea is to figure out the minimum that you will need...balls, patches, spare flints and a flint tool in a flint wallet or caps and lube and take only that in your possibles bag. Try to see just how light you can travel.

 

[longcruise]

I'm no expert on making bags, but a few things I've learned might be helpful. First, the way to keep the straps out of the way is the traditional fastening at the back. It has already been mentioned that the bag need not be huge nor have many many pockets built in. A pocket on the back side for a spare flint would be handy and maybe one small one sewn inside.

You can also do a double pouch to segregate the frequently used items from the rarely used stuff.

Get TC Albert's book on bag making. It has some full sized patterns. Once you make a bag or two, you will be creating your own patterns.

 

[BrownBear]

Easy to appreciate your thinking and concerns, but the solution is really easy, no matter where you attach the straps:

If you need the bag to stay open while you survey the contents, just fold the flap back and "catch" it between your body and the bag. Done.

Lots of field experience has shown me there's a bigger issue with bag openings: The darned things can flop open while you stagger and stoop over under and through things, dumping contents.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.... You can put a button or buckle on it to hold the flap closed. IF you remember to re-close it in the heat and hurry of the moment. Not so, just when you need it most.

I prefer that the straps attach to the back of the bag just below the "hinge" of the flap. I also prefer a flap sewn on as a separate piece, rather than one continuous piece of leather extending up from the back.

Arranged like that, the flap WANTS to stay closed, even when you forget the buckle/button/snap/tie. The strap attachment detailed in TC Albert's great book Recreating the 18th Century Hunting Pouch has worked out best for me by a long shot. Right down to the slight angle for attaching the strap so it "spreads" a little up toward your shoulder, helping the bag lie flatter against your body. Hard to go wrong with an ancient design like that which has evolved over hundreds of years as guys lugged the things over hill and dale.

 

[Artificer]

I'm ThInking of designing a new shooting bag and can't decide on the best place to attach the should straps to the bag.

I could put the straps not the back but I thought that would interfere with opening the bag flap all the way back for a clear view to the interior.

Sided gusset attachment would allow the bag flap to fold all the way back to get it out of the way.


I'd like the bag flap to be able to keep rain out the the interior so I was thinking to two short inward facing gusset flaps to keep rain out and stuff from rolling out should the bag tip over.

You didn’t mention if you are trying to copy the general style of some period of shooting bag. Things like Gusset flaps were done on early 19th century Cartridge Boxes (though probably not 18th century) and thus may have been copied/incorporated in civilian pouches. There were two basic ways this was done.

The flaps incorporated as part of the gusset like this: http://www.jarnaginco.com/1812_leather/203rw back.jpg
AND

They sometimes added flaps sewn onto the cover as well. http://www.jarnaginco.com/1812_leather/1808 ear72.jpg

However, cartridge box leather was normally a good bit thicker than the leather used on many civilian shooting bags.

Right now I'm using two bags, a Tandy kit shooting bag I assembled (stitched together). It's too narrow not enough guest width to easily get your hand into. It lacks organizational pockets to keep items separated and easy to find.

My large possibles bag which I sometime take out alone to use as a combo shooting bag possibles bag is actually a "William Joseph Old School Satchel" flyfishing shoulder bag 12.5in x 16in x 6in. Yes it big but easy to carry and nothing will fall out when it's wiped up and its very weather resistant being intend for fishing.
http://www.williamjoseph.net/gear.php?userChoice=Satchel

This bag zips open wide, gator mouth style so it very easy to see inside The disadvantage it the mesh pockets inside snag most muzzle loading accoutrements.

Maybe a custom drop in insert with custom pockets and slots to fit the stuff is normaly carry. I could make a mockup with bristol board staples and glue so I don't waste a lot of leather.

I personally like a bigger shooting bag that will stay open better, to get my big paws in and out; so I made my second shooting pouch as a sort of civilian militia cartridge box pouch. I described this pouch in my post #1464901 and you may find it by scrolling down here.
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/293407/

The straps on that pouch are on the back and angled like Necchi mentioned, though straps attached on the back of the bag or on the gusset where the straps lay straight up from the bag are also known. However, the straps attached in the rear are more common than attaching them to the gusset in virtually any time period the shooting pouches were used.

Like you, I preferred to have the pouch flap out of the way when standing and shooting on a range or at formal/informal matches. So what I did was design adjustable straps so the bag could lay low enough on my body that I could take my outside belt off and then belt it back on with it going over the straps and flap. That kept the flap up for this kind of shooting. When I normally carried the bag, I found I really liked the way the pouch lay lower than many other pouches, as it seemed natural for my hand to get in and out of it. So when I carried it normally, I put my outside belt over the straps, but the flap lay down over the pouch.

A common way is to locate the strap on the back of the bag, angled slightly outward so the strap will fit over the shoulder without a pucker created at the bag.

I began doing the same thing when I started making bayonet and sword slings that went over the shoulder. Everyone has a different size/shape of shoulders, chest and belly. I found it best not to sew the frog portion of those shoulder belts on until after putting the sling over the owner’s body and then moving the frog to where it hung best before sewing it on. I adapted this knowledge to shooting pouches where I put the strap (whether adjustable or not) around the person’s body and then hold the back of the shooting pouch on the strap/s and mark the position of where the strap/s lay best on the person’s body.

You may wish to look at this book for some ideas on 18th and 19th century hunting pouches, if you can find it or order it for loan from a local library. The Kentucky Rifle Hunting Pouch, by Madison Grant. MOST of the bags in this book are 19th century. However, this book only shows basic styles used and then lots of pictures of original pouches ”“ not how to make the pouches.

However, there IS a good book showing construction details of 18th and 19th century hunting pouches and the author is a forum member here. Recreating the 18th Century Hunting Pouch, by T. C. Albert. Many forum members have used this book to successfully make their first hunting pouch. The following link has “Views” of pages in the book to give you and idea of just how helpful it is. http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/49/1/BOOK-R18-CHP

If you are new to working leather, then may I suggest you look at the following link. I would like to specially point you to the post Labonte wrote linking his way of hand stitching. http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/293074/

More coming, but will end this post for now.
Gus

 

[Artificer]

There are VERY FEW original 18th century Shooting Pouches still extant. I could not easily find the article on one original bag I wanted to link, but found this link that is a very close copy of it. If you scroll down to the third picture, you can click on it to enlarge it and see how Mark sewed on the end of the strap that is sewn on. I think this is an important detail to mention. http://contemporarymakers.blogspot.com/2010/05/mark-elliott-early-virginia-shot-pouch.html

I wanted to point out the end of that strap are sewn on by two lines of stitching that are parallel to the long sides of the strap. There is no stitching that runs perpendicular to the length of the strap. IOW, there is no square or rectangle of stitching that we see often see on many modern reproduction strap ends sewn to bags, including most I have personally done years ago.

I first noticed a few years ago that there was no box or rectangular stitching on strap ends sewn by Capt. Jas. and Eric Myall, the latter person Capt. Jas.’ mentor and long time Saddler at Colonial Williamsburg. They also do not generally sew rectangular or square boxes of stitching on the folded leather parts on belts and other straps. I remembered I had seen only one original pouch where the maker did a box “U” shape stitch, but the stitching across the length of the strap was on the very end of the strap where it did not bend. Then it dawned on me there may or probably was a reason for that, so that started me thinking why it was done that way?

Now before I go further, I want to state I have never been trained by a real Saddler or Leathermaker other than a few hours of instruction by the Cordwainer of Williamsburg and that was not on sewing strap ends to pouches. I consider myself only a somewhat advanced amateur at best. I have seen some original pouches in person, but no 18th century pouches. I admit I did not closely examine how they sewed the strap ends on those pouches, as I was interested in other details. I have made reproductions of 18th and 19th century pouches, cartridge and cap boxes, bayonet and sword slings and scabbards, musket slings, frogs and other leather items, though. MOST of what I bring up next is speculation on my part and NOT something an expert informed me about. OK, on with this post.

Then it dawned on me that a line of stitching perpendicular to the long sides of the strap MIGHT weaken the leather in a spot it got a lot of bending. In the last 40 years of doing this hobby, I remembered seeing a few straps and belts that had been sewn with a rectangular or square box stitching and the leather had torn or broken in or near where the stitching was perpendicular to the length of the strap or belt. That led me to break out the book The Kentucky Rifle Hunting Pouch by Madison Grant.

Unfortunately the book normally does not show the back sides of the pouches to see how the strap ends were sewn to the pouch. It also seems like a fair amount of homemade pouches had the straps attached with thongs/laces. Some of the straps look to have been repaired or replaced though. There is also one pouch in plate 49 on page 75 where it seems the strap has torn partially loose on the left strap as you look at the picture.

So I am asking if one of our more expert members like Labonte, Capt. Jas., T.C. Albert, Greg Geiger or others who know a LOT more about period leather work than I; if it is better NOT to sew a square or rectangular box stitch on the strap ends for historic and/or structural reasons and just sew lines of stitches that run parallel to the length of the straps?

I would very much appreciate others’ thoughts on this.
Gus

 

[crockett]

As stated, few originals remain so it seems a lot is unknown.
There is another problem as well. From most of the photographs of originals I've seen it appears that the sides were laid flat against one another and sewed together. That creates a bag that wants to stay flat and seems to lessen the usable interior space. Today we sew "inside out" and once the sewn bag is "turned right side out" where the stitching is inside the bag- the interior seems to billow out and be more spacious.
The straps usually seem to be sewn on the back corners and slightly angled out.
I myself don't like a lot of interior pockets and once again- I'm not sure about the pc aspect on interior pockets. I usually carry a large section of pillow ticking that can be cut into shooting patches or cleaning patches. All the seldom used tools are rolled up and put inside this cloth and then in the bottom of the bag and it creates sort of a shelf that all the gear needed to reload rests upon. Bullet board, etc.
I am not certain but I think on some bags the front section was slightly more narrow than the back (sort of like the toe on a moccasin) which billowed out the inside even when sewn flat.
There are so many modern day replicas around that trying to wade through them and figure out what was an original design has been difficult for me. Some of the James Hanson sketch books have original designs.

 

[Pete44ru]

.

Besides the 2 leather & 1 canvas bags I've made, I also hunt/use a vintage canvas fishing creel (pockets, but no mesh) that I bought in the late 1960's new & adapted to hunting use.


I refer to it as my "haveysack" (haversack).

The shoulder strap attachment point is in the gusset, a few inches below the top/lip of the bag - but I've never had an issue with rainwater entering the bag (I DO hunt in inclement weather :wink: )

The advantages I found are that it carries stuff that would normally ride inside a pants/jacket pocket (knife, compass, deer drag rope, etc) and it's super QUIET when either using or traveling through brushey areas.



.