Scopes on rifles, c.1775

[Wes/Tex]

Charles Willson Peal is known as probably the finest portrait of the AWI era. When he wasn't doing that, he and David Rittenhouse were fiddeling away trying to mount a telescope on a flintlock rifle. Considering his artist talent, it's so unfortunate he didn't decide to paint a representation of it! Considering it was probably the refactory type known over a century before to
galileo, no wonder he was having a touch to trouble getting it to work!
https://allthingsliberty.com/2013/07/charles-willson-peales-riffle-with-a-tellescope-to-it/

 

[TFoley]

Thank you, Sir!!! Facinating stuff, eh? Who'da thort it? A telescopic sight on a flintlock, almost a hundred years before Colonel Davidson and his side-mounted Whitworth scope.

tac

 

[Wes/Tex]

Novel as all get-put, to be sure. Just wish he'd taken the time to sketch or paint what he'd done. Obviously, it never became an operational system.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I'm a little sad we don't have a drawing, and a little glad we don't. Although I confess I don't know why one hasn't yet surfaced, but I cringe to think one or more fellows would or will appear with modern optics made to look "18th century" cobbled onto a flinter, completely ignoring the lack of eye relief in the original, and call it "authentic".

We have enough steam-punk-ish stuff already at living history events (imho).

Now I don't begrudge somebody from hunting with such, and mentioning that "hey it was tried as early as 1776"..., because that's the facts.

LD

 

[tenngun]

On advantage of a scope at that time would have been the poor focus. The refracting telescopes only offered a small circle of focus in the center. All the edges would have been fuzzy rainbow colored and blurry. So your point of aim would only be a small in focus point.
I don’t think I will try it :rotf:

 

[George]

A most excellent find, thank you. :bow:

The earliest reference I had collected to a scope sight on a rifle was about 33 years later, in England, Scloppetaria, by Henry Beaufroy, 1808:

"Others again have had a small telescope instead of an after-sight: the accuracy with which shooting may be conducted by this manner, is amazing; for although it required much trouble to arrange the apparatus for any particular distance, yet once done, the bullets would cut repeatedly one into the other, and not infrequently a second shot would so completely pass through a former, as scarcely to leave any additional indentation on the edge. Their liability to be out of order, however, has precluded their frequent introduction; the sight being adjusted by means of two cross wires in the tube of the telescope, similar to those used for transit instruments, the very jar of the piece firing will very soon alter their position, and consequently their accuracy can no longer be depended upon. "

Spence

 

[Wes/Tex]

High praise indeed coming from the master. :thumbsup: And I thank you for your find. Beaufroy's comment is one I'd never seen.

 

[George]

Your post was one of those which caught my attention more than most and I could hear little mental circles click shut as I read it.

Charles Willson Peale was what we call an 18th-century polymath, and I've long been a fan. He was probably the preeminent portrait painter of the day, and is most well known for his portraits of Washington and other prominent revolutionary figures. He dabbled in many things, though, and with good results. He was the first to dig an American mastodon, first to articulate an entire skeleton of one and first to publicly display one, in the first American museum of natural history, which he founded. And a lot of other such things. I've spent a fair amount of time poring over his painting of the dig, working out all the mechanical gadgets they used, which are totally impressive. I'm not at all surprised to learn that he dabbled with telescopic sights on flintlocks many years before anyone else.

On another level, we can learn a lot from his simple diary entries. We are always trying to figure out how guns got built in the day, and he describes one way nicely. It wasn't a bespoke gun, he bought "mountings" or furniture, lock and barrel from separate individuals and paid another to build him a gun from them. He was unhappy with the lock, replaced it with a more expensive one and complained of being charged too much. He spoke of "working about" and "finishing" the gun, which implies he worked on it, himself. He gave prices of several of the parts and the work, which is rare. He told of spending quite a few shooting sessions working out his new gun, which sounds very familiar, to me. He made his own shot-bag and charger, cleaned his gun, also familiar.

Reading about his trying to work out the box of the gun and how he lost his balls because the latch failed puts me right there with him, as does reading about his problems and attempted solutions to putting a telescopic sights on a rifle. I'm fascinated to read about his being smacked in the eye by the scope, a problem I'm very familiar with, but which I would never have thought could have existed in 1775. All of this personalizes him, makes him seem much more real, not just an item in some history book.

His comments ascribed to Mr. Rittenhouse, a very prominent astronomer and telescope maker, obviously a scientific sort, about balls bouncing off compressed air in front of them when heavy charges are fired, gives us a glimpse of the state of understanding of physics of the day.

For me, when he said he bought his barrel, mold and "screw wiper" from "Mr. Palmer", that rang a bell. I've been familiar with the gunsmith Thomas Palmer for a long time. I have collected several very interesting and informative ads he posted in the newspapers, have a copy of one with a woodcut of a long gun, have pictures of a musket of his which has survived. Doing historical research about a narrow period you learn to know certain characters, and when one of them pops up in a new item, it's like running across an old acquaintance.

These items many times raise new questions... what are "a set of loop to hang up a gun"? Why did he leave the barrel and lock with Palmer?

So, Wes/Tex, I enjoyed your post more than average. :grin:

Spence

 

[Artificer]

That is a fascinating perspective, Spence. I enjoyed reading that very much. I confess to thinking some of the same things you mentioned, but not everything.

Would you be kind enough to give more information on the Gunsmith Thomas Palmer you mentioned? I know I would appreciate it very much and perhaps others would as well.

Gus

 

[George]

Here's the bulk of what I have collected.

"The Pennsylvania Gazette
March 31, 1773
THO. PALMER Gun Smith. At his Shop, the North Side of Market street, between Fourth and Fifth streets, HAS for SALE, a Quantity of well made RIFLES , of different Lengths and Sizes of Bores, which he will insure to the Purchasers, to be as good and as handsomely fitted up as any made in America; he likewise makes Fowling Pieces, of different Sizes, such as have been approved of by Gentlemen of this City. All Persons that will please to favour him with their Custom, shall be served with great Dispatch and Care.

N.B. He repairs old Guns in the most careful Manner."

The original of the above ad, scroll down to Wed., July 6, 2016 and then a little more.
http://ofsortsforprovincials.blogspot.com/

***********************
"The Pennsylvania Gazette
March 16, 1774
THO: PALMER Gun Smith AT his Shop, on the North Side of Market street, between Fourth and Fifth streets, hath for Sale, a Quantity of well made RIFLES, that he will dispose of very low for Cash. He likewise makes all Sorts of SHOT GUNS, such as straight Rifles, Cocking pieces, Fuzees, &c. in the best and neatest Manner, which hath gained the Approbation of some of the best Judges within the three Provinces. He also repairs old Work, in the most careful Manner. All Persons who will please to favour him with their Custom, may depend upon his Punctuality and Dispatch."
**********************
"The Pennsylvania Gazette
March 6, 1776
EXTRAORDINARY Wages will be given to two or three Journeymen Gunsmiths, who are skilled in Stocking of Muskets and Rifles . Likewise good Encouragement will be given to a Gunlock Filer, that can make Musket Locks. --- Apply to THOMAS PALMER, the North Side of Market street, between Fourth and Fifth streets, Philadelphia.

N.B. Any person that has Skill to accomplish either of the aforesaid Branches, may, if they choose, work Piece work, and receive their Cash every Saturday Afternoon; or a Sum of Money will be advanced to them, by giving Security for the Delivery of their Work."
************************
A musket made by Thomas Palmer at Fifth and Market Streets, one of 40 ordered by Washington for the Prince William County Independent Company, a voluntary military organization in Virginia.

Museum of the American Revolution:
https://www.amrevmuseum.org/collection/thomas-palmer-musket

and




Spence

 

[Wes/Tex]

Also found his journal, if that's truly what it was, fascinating. On these old accounts we always have to try to read between the lines to understand what folks sometimes didn't say, how they understood science & physics compared to us and glean every bit of info from them we can.

I so enjoy your posts and the writings you've done on your site...reread a lot of it often. I'm glad I was able to add to the general understanding of who was doing what. The earlier post of the tunnel sight on a flintlock rifle interested me greatly. Some have tried to tie it to sharpshooters of the AWI era but I'm betting it was a target or hunting application. Then my old buddy Dennis Heckathorne made a comment about an attempt to attach a scope around 1775 and I was off and running. As I'm sure you know, it's the thrill of the hunt...for information as well as game. Being able to track down something like this or figure out what color Hessian underwear was is a treat! Oh...not "Frucht des Webstuhls"! :shocked2: :wink: :haha: :rotf:

 

[Wes/Tex]

Hard to really see teh lock but darn if it doens't look like a LLP King's Musket! :wink:

 

[Artificer]

Truly great info, Spence, thank you.

Perhaps I am mistaken, but I assume Thomas Palmer was originally English or perhaps his ancestors were?

I'm sure the link you provided will interest others, as well. SgtErv will most likely be interested in the cartridge boxes, etc. for the 8th Va Regiment and Dave Person should be interested in the muskets that were copied from Wilson Commercial Muskets. I know I sure was.

Gus

 

[George]

....Dave Person should be interested in the muskets that were copied from Wilson Commercial Muskets. I know I sure was.

I have info that Palmer was given a "Jersey Musket" as a pattern to build his from. This Jersey musket was of a type provided to New Jersey during the F&I War by Richard Wilson, and retained in their arsenal afterward. They were then used in the beginning of the AWI. Not surprising then that Palmer's surviving musket has a resemblance to Wilson's, it was supposed to. :grin:

Spence

 

[Rockthrower]

Now, this string of comments is what I value most of all on this forum--erudite, articulate and no pettiness of comments.

 

[Artificer]

....Dave Person should be interested in the muskets that were copied from Wilson Commercial Muskets. I know I sure was.

I have info that Palmer was given a "Jersey Musket" as a pattern to build his from. This Jersey musket was of a type provided to New Jersey during the F&I War by Richard Wilson, and retained in their arsenal afterward. They were then used in the beginning of the AWI. Not surprising then that Palmer's surviving musket has a resemblance to Wilson's, it was supposed to. :grin:

Spence

Exactly so. Dave is currently building a musket based on Wilson Commercial Muskets, keeping us apprised of his work in the gun building section, and it looks great.

Gus