WITHDRAWN SAMPLES SENT - .459 - 405 gr - Bison Buster

[Griz44Mag]

A friend of mine approached me a few months ago about casting some solids for his paper cutter sharps.
From what I read in the rules, and comments made by Zonie - these are legitimate guns to be discussed on the forum.
That said - if the mods take issue with this, I will happily retract and apologize for this.
The bullet is a close copy of a bullet used to kill bison on the frontier during the great buffalo massacre.
It is sized for and intended to be used in one of the many Sharps configured rifles used during this campaign.
The bullet as cast with 99.2% pure virgin lead - is .962" long, driving bands at .460" with the grease grooves at .407" They hold a lot of lube. The weight is 405 grains. They are flat base.
For consistency and per my friends request - they have been sized and lubricated with my special blend of carnauba, tallow, beeswax and olive.
I cast a few extras - and I will take some of them out next week to test fire at 70 - 100 gr 2f powder charges.
I would really like to have a few folks here with the appropriate firearms to help test these.
All I ask is that interested parties pay for the shipping and I will send five rounds for evaluation.
If they work out OK, I will be offering them for sale.
Thanks!

 

[Dude]

I don't know exactly what is meant by a "paper cutter sharps". I've not heard that term before. Does this pertain to the percussion Sharps and feeding it the paper cartridges?

I haven't shot mine yet, and who knows when that will happen. The rear sight was poorly manufactured and needs some fixing (pivot holes inaccurately drilled so it angles to the side) - and the machinist friend I took it to is going through some tough times and hasn't gotten to it yet. Otherwise I'd be happy to help you out.

 

[Griz44Mag]

I don't know exactly what is meant by a "paper cutter sharps". I've not heard that term before. Does this pertain to the percussion Sharps and feeding it the paper cartridges?

I haven't shot mine yet, and who knows when that will happen. The rear sight was poorly manufactured and needs some fixing (pivot holes inaccurately drilled so it angles to the side) - and the machinist friend I took it to is going through some tough times and hasn't gotten to it yet. Otherwise I'd be happy to help you out.

Yes - that reference the paper cartridge. As he explained it to me - the closing of the breech cuts the paper and exposes the charge. I don't own one - so I am going on what I was told.
I am taking my (hidden to keep from getting punished) gun to the range next week and launch some of these with 70-80-90-100 grains of powder to see how they fly.
That still won't tell me how they will work in the sharps until some cartridges are rolled and fired. And knowing my buddy - that could be a month or more.

 

[Dude]

Ah - so you're putting them through a cartridge gun - a Sharps?

Thanks for the explanation! Yes, you're right, the early cartridges for the sharps had a pigtail the breech sheared off in loading. I think that quickly morphed into a flat-base cartridge due to the problems with shearing off the paper.

 

[Griz44Mag]

Ah - so you're putting them through a cartridge gun - a Sharps?

Thanks for the explanation! Yes, you're right, the early cartridges for the sharps had a pigtail the breech sheared off in loading. I think that quickly morphed into a flat-base cartridge due to the problems with shearing off the paper.

YUP - that's the way it was explained to me. I'll see it first hand when we go test these in his gun.
The gun I am going to shoot them in is a no-no on this forum - but it will still let me see how they fly.

 

[Silent Walker]

Hold off before you test fire those using FFg or even substitute powder... that lube is for smokeless powder only, see if you can get some SPG bullet lube from Buffalo Arms. If you shoot them as is, don't say you haven't been warned.... rock hard candy like fouling you'll learn to hate quickly. BTW the buffalo harvest bullets used were 500-gr Gov Round Nose, not WFN bullets like these 405-gr here. A good book to get and will have plenty on the topic of Sharps rifles is The Buffalo Hunters by Charles M Robinson III

 

[nkbj]

A friend of mine approached me a few months ago about casting some solids for his paper cutter sharps.
From what I read in the rules, and comments made by Zonie - these are legitimate guns to be discussed on the forum.
That said - if the mods take issue with this, I will happily retract and apologize for this.
The bullet is a close copy of a bullet used to kill bison on the frontier during the great buffalo massacre.
It is sized for and intended to be used in one of the many Sharps configured rifles used during this campaign.
The bullet as cast with 99.2% pure virgin lead - is .962" long, driving bands at .460" with the grease grooves at .407" They hold a lot of lube. The weight is 405 grains. They are flat base.
For consistency and per my friends request - they have been sized and lubricated with my special blend of carnauba, tallow, beeswax and olive.
I cast a few extras - and I will take some of them out next week to test fire at 70 - 100 gr 2f powder charges.
I would really like to have a few folks here with the appropriate firearms to help test these.
All I ask is that interested parties pay for the shipping and I will send five rounds for evaluation.
If they work out OK, I will be offering them for sale.
Thanks!
View attachment 100892

That's certainly a generous offer. And nice looking bullets.
Surely someone will be proud to participate in the experiments.
Being almost pure lead... Have you done expansion tests for grins?
I shoot straight lead in my .458 bore TC New Englander and it goes splat.

 

[Griz44Mag]

Hold off before you test fire those using FFg or even substitute powder... that lube is for smokeless powder only, see if you can get some SPG bullet lube from Buffalo Arms. If you shoot them as is, don't say you haven't been warned.... rock hard candy like fouling you'll learn to hate quickly. BTW the buffalo harvest bullets used were 500-gr Gov Round Nose, not WFN bullets like these 405-gr here. A good book to get and will have plenty on the topic of Sharps rifles is The Buffalo Hunters by Charles M Robinson III

Think again Mr. expert.
I use that lube on my Minnies, my Reals and more.
I pre-lube the barrel for the first shot - with a mink patch.
Last time out with the REALS - 24 consecutive shots - no wiping - no cleaning.
At home it took only 3 easy patches to get the barrel clean.
I have been using that mix for decades - I already know how it will perform.
As far as "authentic" - do you really think every bullet fired from a buffalo gun was exactly like the one you mentioned above?
I think not. I'll even bet there were a LOT of round balls sent down a Sharps barrel.

 

[Griz44Mag]

That's certainly a generous offer. And nice looking bullets.
Surely someone will be proud to participate in the experiments.
Being almost pure lead... Have you done expansion tests for grins?
I shoot straight lead in my .458 bore TC New Englander and it goes splat.

I use the same lead on the REALS I cast. See my thread on the test firing of those.
And yes - That pure lead does go "splat"
These are not that different than the REAL design. Except that I sized these first. The reals get sized going down the barrel.
https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/range-report-on-58-caliber-r-e-a-l-conicals.137654/

 

[Silent Walker]

Think again Mr. expert.
I use that lube on my Minnies, my Reals and more.
I pre-lube the barrel for the first shot - with a mink patch.
Last time out with the REALS - 24 consecutive shots - no wiping - no cleaning.
At home it took only 3 easy patches to get the barrel clean.
I have been using that mix for decades - I already know how it will perform.
As far as "authentic" - do you really think every bullet fired from a buffalo gun was exactly like the one you mentioned above?
I think not. I'll even bet there were a LOT of round balls sent down a Sharps barrel.

Okay if you say so.... no issues, was just passing it on... sorry to ruffle your feathers.

 

[Elkhorse]

What size are the solids you're making for .54 Sharps?

In my paper cutter carbine I shoot .544/475 gr christmas tree and .540/415 gr mini hollow base, flat top, made w/lee mold.
The .544 fit snug in the cone.
The .540 mini slides through so I make those w/ paper cartridge and it stays in the cone.

 

[Griz44Mag]

What size are the solids you're making for .54 Sharps?

In my paper cutter carbine I shoot .544/475 gr christmas tree and .540/415 gr mini hollow base, flat top, made w/lee mold.
The .544 fit snug in the cone.
The .540 mini slides through so I make those w/ paper cartridge and it stays in the cone.

The 54 caliber stuff I cast is the LEE REAL.
The 4 bands start a little small, and get a little bigger at each band until the top band at .54 - I would have to dig one out and measure it to be exact.
The rifling engraves the bullet if you load them from the muzzle. I don't have any information on anyone loading them in a Sharps, but I have loaded them in my Lyman Plains.
I have not loaded them in my other 54 rifles as they have a very long barrel and twist and shoot great with roundballs.
I get decent accuracy but had to up the charge by 15 gr to get the same POI as the roundballs. A pure weight issue I think.

 

[Griz44Mag]

This is now withdrawn.
Thank you to the folks who offered to help out with the trials of this projectile.
I did up the sample count to 10 each as requested. The reasoning was more than logical and I appreciate that.
Those who have responded and will be receiving the samples in the next few days will be offered a 25% discount on their follow up order - if they chose to use them.

 

[Crow-Feather]

I don't know exactly what is meant by a "paper cutter sharps". I've not heard that term before. Does this pertain to the percussion Sharps and feeding it the paper cartridges?

I haven't shot mine yet, and who knows when that will happen. The rear sight was poorly manufactured and needs some fixing (pivot holes inaccurately drilled so it angles to the side) - and the machinist friend I took it to is going through some tough times and hasn't gotten to it yet. Otherwise I'd be happy to help you out.

paper cutter = target rifle

 

[jefair1]

The 54 caliber stuff I cast is the LEE REAL.
The 4 bands start a little small, and get a little bigger at each band until the top band at .54 - I would have to dig one out and measure it to be exact.
The rifling engraves the bullet if you load them from the muzzle. I don't have any information on anyone loading them in a Sharps, but I have loaded them in my Lyman Plains.
I have not loaded them in my other 54 rifles as they have a very long barrel and twist and shoot great with roundballs.
I get decent accuracy but had to up the charge by 15 gr to get the same POI as the roundballs. A pure weight issue I think.
[/QUOTE
They don't work well in the Sharps. You have to use a short starter to get them into the barrel.

 

[Griz44Mag]

That's good information. I'll pass that tidbit of information on to my friend.
He should be back in town in another week or so.

 

[jefair1]

The REAL bullets are designed to load base first, so unless he koads them backwards they won't work. A 54 maxi dies work, if the rifle likes it.

 

[Griz44Mag]

The REAL bullets are designed to load base first, so unless he koads them backwards they won't work. A 54 maxi dies work, if the rifle likes it.

The bullets that this thread is about are not REALs.
I do cast REALs, but not for 45 caliber rifles. I start at 50 caliber for those. (50-54-58)
The bullets referenced in this thread are pushed through a lube-sizer and are .459. They are not tapered like the REALs. They are straight sided with lube grooves.
The Sharps my friend has is a 45 caliber.
Last week I loaded a batch of these into suppositories to test fire them. 70 grains of 2F real black powder.
They shoot great - they don't tumble and cut very nice perfectly round holes in a plywood backboard and paper target.
At 50 yards I get a very nice 2-4" group and at 100 yards I get a decent minute of deer with them.
Next week I will cast a batch of these with 15BH lead and load another batch of these using that other kind of powder that doesn't smoke very much and bring them up to 1800-1900 FPS.
But I can't talk about that so if you want to see those results you need to

What size are the solids you're making for .54 Sharps?

In my paper cutter carbine I shoot .544/475 gr christmas tree and .540/415 gr mini hollow base, flat top, made w/lee mold.
The .544 fit snug in the cone.
The .540 mini slides through so I make those w/ paper cartridge and it stays in the cone.

I don't make 54 caliber solids for the Sharps. These are 45 caliber.

 

[jefair1]

Sorry, I got it reversea. I meant 45

 

[Griz44Mag]

Sorry, I got it reversea. I meant 45

Right numbers though!
Guess we will find out in a week or 2.
Makes me want to go out and find a Sharps, just don't need to be spending the cash right now.