ram rod wear on barrel.................

[bob1961]

not to highjack the thread "virtyally indestrutible ramrod"....but how does a rubber or
composite ramrod wear out or wear off metal from a barrel metal if no abrasive material is embedded in the rubber or composite rod....after my wood rod got stuck in my T/C rifle after the first rainy day hunt i bought the rod T/C had with the rubber coating on it....now thinking is metal is harder then non-metal so how can it wear out metal :hmm: ....i know when loading my gun i don't have a bore guide, but i know i'm not rubbing the bore or muzzle with the rod very hard if at all cause the PRB goes down pretty easy :v .............bob

 

[roundball]

I think in high level general terms, anything that rubs against anything else produces wear...even bearings in an engine constantly bathed in oil eventually wear out, so to me, the question is really one of how much/how fast will something wear.

Best example I use is Easton Alunimum arrow shafts...top of the line XX75 2413's...32" of extremely smooth, straight soft aluminum material...will wear right down through the solid stainless steel arms of an arrow rest and the tiny beginnings of the wear will be visible to the naked eye after just a few hundred shots.

Slide on the hard nylon tubes to protect the stainless steel arms from wear and after the first trip or two in the back yard you can see the tiny beginnings of wear on the hard nylon tubes.

IMO, we have to be careful we don't oversimplify the old sayings like "brass is softer than steel" into a mindset that means brass won't wear the steel....anything will wear anything, it's just a matter of degree & time.

In the case of the arrow shafts, while everybody knows aluminun is softer than steel, at work in my example is the long full 32" length of the shaft being drawn back across a tiny balance point, then again when it's released...64" or over 5 feet...for every arrow.
Shoot 100 shots in the back yard and that's 500 feet of one metal dragging across another.
3 times a week is 1500 feet.
12 times a month is 18,000 feet...OVER 3 MILES!

Apply that thinking to any kind of ramrod and some big time numbers will begin to accumulate as well.

Another example...we all know that cloth is nothing compared to steel...yet every one of us counts on the knowledge that our barrels will become polished in fairly short order just by shooting a few hundred shots of a simple cloth patched ball through our steel barrels.

Im my opinion, the amount of wear with any rubbing parts is simply a matter of degree and a matter of time...just my .02 cents at no charge.
:winking:

 

[bob1961]

thanks RB....i'v seen the arrow shaft points ya made on my nylon tube on the flipper rest i used in the past, but ya don't think of a softer material wearing out metal :thumbsup: :v .........bob

 

[biliff]

Not that this is completely relevant, but maybe its illustrative.
Went into a church in Italy once with a bronze statue of a Saint. People would file by and touch the foot of the statue. After centuries of doing this the statue's foot was smoothed out and worn down to the point it was no longer recognizable as a foot. Long term wear in action.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Not the best analogy, Bill. Bronze can does corrode, and our sweat contains acids that will also accelerate the process of destroying and corroding soft metals. But, then, the Great Pyramids looked a lot better 2500 years ago, too.

 

[Norskie]

I used to maintain Bell & Howell mail inserting machines. Paper will wear through spring steel guides much faster than you'd imagine. During our busy season I'd change them out once a month.
I use a bore guide for cleaning, but I'll load without one in the field.
Moose

 

[windwalker_au]

i use a home made muzzel protector that stays on the ram[url] rod.made[/url] from a 54/70 case.
bernie :thumbsup:

 

[Tumblernotch]

And some seemingly harmless materials can wear out hard steel in an amazingly short time! I used to ride motorcycles and the last one I owned had a springloaded chain tensioner that was fitted with a Teflon block. I know some dirt got on it, but the chain wore just about as fast as the Teflon did. Since the block was somewhat thicker than the chain, I wore out several chains and never replaced the block. And like you said, it's a matter of time and degree, but it surprised me how fast the Teflon wore the chain down.

 

[MikeChapin]

The problem I have with the nylon and rubberized ramrods is that those materials seem to pick up and retain a lot of crud. Brass and even stainless steel will do it to a lesser degree. Fine grains of of grit imbedded in the material make a fine rubbing compound. That's why I always use a muzzle protector on all my range and cleaning rods.

BTW: The same principle applies a little differently to aluminum. Aluminum is a very active metal and reacts almost instantly to the oxygen in the air. A fine coating of aluminum oxide develops where the bare metal is wxposed and keeps it from corroding further. The aluminum is indeed softer than steel but the fine layer of aluminum oxide coating is harder than steel and will wear it down rather rapidly as Roundball has seen.

 

[MSW]

thanks, mike- you notice stuff like that and wonder 'why is it?' and, thanks to getting to hang out with cool guys who know good stuff, courtesy of this most excellent site, i get to know cool stuff too.

another saturday morning forehead slapper to me!

thanks again!

msw

 

[paulvallandigham]

Mike : What you say is true. However, it is much easier to clean off a muzzle protector, and keep it clean than to keep the entire length of a ramrod clean and free of microscopic crud. I clean my muzzle protector, and the range rod ever time I finish using them to clean or load the barrel. It is part of the range routine. If I wanted to shoot in a hurry, I would use my modern butt stuffer semi-auto rifles to shoot.

I think people here, and in our sport have to always ask themselves why they even bothered to shoot BP guns. It certainly cannot be for the high volume of shooting you do in an after noon at the range! I believe we are atracted to the guns because of our national obsession with our history, but also because we enjoy more the quiet, contemplative nature of black powder shooting. I go to the range to get away from the phone, the office, and all the stress I find there, and at home. Taking my time so that I load my gun right, taking careful aim, instead of shooting from the hip, is all part of relaxing, and enjoying the sport. It does not appeal to all shooters. A lot of people only feel good about shooting when they shoot a lot, or make a lot of noise in a short amount of time. They shoot to feel empowered, rather than to relax. I have done that too. But I take out the modern guns and bang away with them for that purpose. When I pull out my ML rifle or shotgun, its because I want to shoot a few good shots, and enjoy the entire event that is involved in loading, shooting, and cleaning my gun.

To each his own.

 

[Claude Mathis]

I think people here, and in our sport have to always ask themselves why they even bothered to shoot BP guns.

I agree. It always puzzles me when I hear people talk about using synthetic patches, imitation black powder, scopes, or any number of "alterations" to traditional, black powder firearms. I often wonder what attracted them in the first place, as they can't seem to "modernize" the system fast enough.

To each his own.

I also agree with that, but it does make you wonder?

 

[roundball]

I think a lot of it is simply a learning curve...people embark on the muzzleloading journey and it is so ingrained in us every year of our lives to look for better implements that reduce cost, avoid wear, extend the life, etc, etc that we have to acquire a mindset about NOT doing those things in this hobby...a hobby pretty different from most.

I myself didn't know any of this traditionally oriented stuff was even in existance outside of museums...my debut into "muzzleloading" was with a Knight MK-85 back in '89...terrific piece of engineering...thought that WAS muzzleloading for two years.

The good news is I've enjoyed sidelocks now for about 16 years, patched balls for about 10 years, and Flintlocks for the last 6 years...and I keep learning more things, more dos & don'ts, every year.

IMO it's a journey...it would be a very, very rare individual who could start down the traditional muzzleloading path by themself...not being led or mentored...and immediately be aware of everything that's relevant and appropriate, knowing everything that "should be" for the hobby, and consciously making all the correct decisions all the time, etc.

In fact, to me the journey of discovering, learning, growing is actually the intersting part...my worry is that if/when I reach a point of saturation for my level of interest, I guess the hobby would start losing it's shine.

 

[paulvallandigham]

I also wonder, obviously, Claude. For me, shooting black powder is the way I can forget time, for awhile, and just enjoy the process.

In college I needed an elective to fill out my hours to graduate, so I took an Art Class in Japanese Art Culture. ( How bad could it be?) It fit my schedule. Among other things, I was taught the formal Japanese Tea Ceremony, and all the rituals that are part of that ceremony. By the time we got to the end of the semester, we all found our selves totally unaware of time, and often more than an hour would have passed in what we thought was only a few minutes.

Shooting Black Powder is the only activity I have done since that even comes close to suspending my sense of time like that. I think of the process, even today as the " Zen " of Black Powder.

That may not work for others, but I look forward to shooting maybe twenty five shots in a single afternoon on the range. I notice that wild animals are not disturbed by gunfire, either, and its nice to be outside where you can listen to their calls, interspersed with your own noise. I saw a fox trot across the firing line one afternoon without a care in the world. Somehow he knew that nobody had a gun loaded ! :surrender:

 

[MikeChapin]

Mike : What you say is true. However, it is much easier to clean off a muzzle protector, and keep it clean than to keep the entire length of a ramrod clean and free of microscopic crud....

I also clean the muzzle protector. It just takes a second and even though the muzzle protector doesn't move around much I still like them crud free as a matter of personal preference. As far as cleaning the rods, I don't see where you can get them crud free without resorting to a steel wool rub down each time.

I also enjoy the process with shooting muzzleloaders. Getting off 25 or so good shots in a range session is just fine with me. Even during competion I will only shoot one aggregate in the morning and one in the afternoon.

I very seldom shoot smokeless anymore. Poping fifty rounds downrange in an hour just doesn't have the same satisfaction as shooting a front stuffer.

 

[Old Charlie]

I think you guys are just looking for something to worry about. Hell as old as most of us are them guns are going to last a lot longer than we are, no matter what you do to them. :rotf:
Old Charlie

 

[ryoung14]

Amen, Charlie. I don't imagine this level of ramrod/muzzle obsession was common "back in the Period".
Bob

 

[roundball]

Amen, Charlie. I don't imagine this level of ramrod/muzzle obsession was common "back in the Period".
Bob

:hmm: :hmm: :hmm: ...I've read that it was not uncommon back in the period to periodically have to cut the muzzle back an inch or so to compensate for loss of accuracy due to muzzle wear by ramrods.

My guess is that influences the 'obsession' by today's shooters AND is of even greater concern considering the enormous amount of shots we take in a year compared to those back in those days...I know I've been averaging 2000-2200 shots/year...times how many (4-6?) ramrod actions per shot...(seating, wiping, etc)...that's at least 8000-12,000 ramrod strokes a year...plus all the weekly cleaning strokes, etc.

A typical settler might have shot a rifle once a week for a deer? 50 times a year? 100 if they were real meat eaters?

The math adds up quickly for us shooters today...

 

[ryoung14]

Roundball,
Did you happen to read whether there was any correlation between those barrel cut-backs and the use of steel rods? With the low level of rod usage you indicate, steel rods are the most likely culprit for muzzle damage. Steel rods make a lot of sense for people who depend on their guns to survive in remote areas.

I envy the amount of shooting you do. I would like to get out at least once a week to squeeze off a couple of dozen shots. That would put me at about half the level of shooting you do. Due to the weather here in NY's snow belt, I'd be lucky to get out once a month for half of the year. Haven't been out since ML season ended in mid Dec. Got tomorrow off, but with 10 deg. & 25 to 30K winds forecast, it looks like another wipeout. So maybe I actually get to shoot about one quarter of what you do...if I'm lucky.

Spread that across a dozen+ firearms, and that brings the ramrod usage per barrel down still further.

The fact that I strive for loads that minimize the need for cleaning between shots, cuts it further yet. My favorites are those that reach a steady state of fouling while still delivering accuracy and get me through a 24 shot string without having to clean more than once. To do this, the ball is usually seated with a patched jag; but there's only one stroke in and one out. So subtract another 4 to 6 strokes per shot from your usage.

I hate putting steel down a barrel, so that never happens. It's either a T/C coated rod, a brass rod, a wooden rod or an anodized aluminum rod; in that order of preference. The range rod is one of those old yellow T/C coated jobs.

Have you noticed that when a T/C coated rod contacts the rifling at the muzzle, the rifling peels away a thin strip of the rod coating? If there was anything imbedded in the coating, it got peeled away by the muzzle rifling, not rubbed against it.

Beyond that.....can you say QLA? Present and accounted for on at least half of my MLs. No rifling at the muzzle to damage.

For my usage, anyway, I still vote with old Charlie on this one. :thumbsup:
Bob

 

[roundball]

No more than you get to shoot it's probably safe to say you won't wear out your rifles in your lifetime...and although I shoot a lot, it's just mainly 3 rifles that I rotate through on different Saturdays...I don't shoot the big boys year round, just the .45/.50/.54.

Never read anything that suggested the typical settler used a steel ramrod...they were wooden, which again, if we can believe what we read, causes a problem in it's own right in terms of the grit and grime they can attract/collect. (Metal ramrods were used with military arms of course).

I think TC's polymer coated fiberglass range rods are outstanding...as soon as I heard they had discontinued them I searched all over the Internet and in total, found/bought up a couple dozen.

They came in both yellow and black color polymer they're all I use at the range...caution against false security about the coating peeling away point that you made: the fiberglas underneath it is terrible on a muzzle which is why it's coated of course.

Every other ramrod I have is brass and are only used with nylon muzzleguides...same thing with short starters.

Wouldn't have a QLA barrel...first one I ever got was a .54cal x 1:66" RB barrel...sent it back to Fox Ridge to replace it with a normal 1:66" RB barrel without QLA, which they did.

IMO, the QLA was just a 1995 marketing gimmick in a desparate attempt to stop the bleeding from people flocking away from TC to the other companies who had inlines...TC was a couple years behind on inlines and this was a desparate measure to claim surpurb accuracy with an existing product line (sidelocks)...but if you noticed, they discontinued all their sidelock MLs within the next couple years anyway except for the Hawken & Renegade.

The QLA serves no purpose in aligning a sphere like a round ball, and 1.25" of rifling is lost in the process, etc, etc...and what few conicals I used years ago I never had any problem starting them so to me it seemed like a solution in search of a non-existent problem too. More power to anyone who uses them, I just have no need for them.