PRB...Not for me

[Claude Mathis]

I'm responding to myself, so no one thinks this is aimed at them. :grin:

Everyone gets to define "traditional" and the cut-off date for themselves. I had to chose a date for the Forum, so I chose the end of the Civil War, due to the fact that so many people reenact that event. My choice had nothing to do with the weapons used during that war. It was merely a date at which to draw the line.

And now you know the rest of the story (Imagine I'm doing a really good Paul Harvey). :wink:

 

[tg]

". If we define “Traditional” as pre-civil war, then the discussion of projectiles other than the round ball are certainly appropriate in that the Harper’s Ferry bullet was adopted by the US Army in 1855."

once again read this very slowly the conicals of the past except for a very few are not the same as what is being offered today, any similarity is a fluke as todays bullets were not intended to be based on history they were designed with modern R&D technology to get the most performance out of a gun that loaded from the front, they are not traditional, the original styles are the modern ones are not..pretty simple... T&C tried many original conicals without any luck in achieving accuracy then they designed their own, and many others have followed this route, use the modern bullets and good luck hunting them but out of respect fopr the true traditional community don't try and hang the traditional handle on them.Another consideration is that is you feel the modern bullets are close enough to be called traditional because they kinda look like the originals now does one justify a traditional 1860 bullet in a 1800 replica gun? if it does not fit ya gotta quit...calling it traditional

 

[Runner]

Traditional requires that at least a significant fraction of the population in the time discussed to know of, have access to, and use the item in question. Prior to 1840 there was no access to, knowledge of, or use of conical bullets of any kind by any significant fraction of any population in the US. This should be enough to end the argument for anyone that is not trying to change history to suit themselves, but it never is. As long as the date used as a cut off is well into the caplock era, this kind of stuff will happen over and over again.
Because we know certain native tribes used fire pistons, and that those people visitied the US, does not make it traditional for you to pull out your "traditional fire piston" to use in the fire start event!
You do have to have and use a dollop of common sense.
Since Claude has stated the end of the civil war, then discussions about the then new type of bullets and their merits is appropriate. I am sure a great many discussions about the exact subject happened around that time. That is not the time frame I use.

 

[Stumpkiller]

I've got a couple comments left and I'll be done with it. If anyone here truly has a lack of confidence in the round ball then they should not hunt with it, period. It would be foolish to or for anyone else to expect them to.

I have a great confidence in it as I apply it; on its being sufficient to cleanly dispatch the game I am hunting. I am also very conscious of my limitations, through practice and gained experience, and work with all of these. I use both .50 and .54 that many here would say are too large or too small for certain game, but I am confident and that helps me be successful.

I'm lucky enough to hunt where I can decide if my shots will be 20, 40 or 100 yards and sit myself down or work wind and cover to my advantage. If a shot does not "feel" right I don't take it.

Same goes for target shooting. If you're stepping up to the line with rifle, pistol or bow and your mind is saying "why am I shooting these crummy XXXXXXX?" You might as well pack up and go home. You've defeated yourself before anyone else tried.

That's all I got left.

 

[Slamfire]

Traditional requires that at least a significant fraction of the population in the time discussed to know of, have access to, and use the item in question. Prior to 1840 there was no access to, knowledge of, or use of conical bullets of any kind by any significant fraction of any population in the US. This should be enough to end the argument for anyone that is not trying to change history to suit themselves, but it never is. As long as the date used as a cut off is well into the caplock era, this kind of stuff will happen over and over again.
Because we know certain native tribes used fire pistons, and that those people visitied the US, does not make it traditional for you to pull out your "traditional fire piston" to use in the fire start event!
You do have to have and use a dollop of common sense.
Since Claude has stated the end of the civil war, then discussions about the then new type of bullets and their merits is appropriate. I am sure a great many discussions about the exact subject happened around that time. That is not the time frame I use.

How then were archeologists able to pick up, in their own words, "a great number of conical bullets" on the battlefield at Saratoga?

 

[Blizzard of '93]

ditto Slamfire. I read of that find. IIRC they were traced to some sort of rifle an English officer had been experimenting with.

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

How then were archeologists able to pick up, in their own words, "a great number of conical bullets" on the battlefield at Saratoga?

Interesting, got pictures or at least a source for that information?

 

[Runner]

I don't know since I wasn't there. Again. Please document civilian use of conicals before 1840. Please stop attempting to establish the rules based on exceptions. Please stop trying to re-write history to fit your current wants.

 

[tg]

"Traditional requires that at least a significant fraction of the population in the time discussed to know of, have access to, and use the item in question."

that is a good point and I think even 1n a pre 1860 period that no one would have had any exposure to maxi balls, REAL bullets or any of the other bullet types designed in the 20th /21st century. If a conical is a conical than a ML is a ML and we should be able to inclued those types we don't talk about here.

 

[Kentuckywindage]

Heres a couple of those powerbelts i melted and made .490 roundballs with them. They mushroomed great with 60 grains triple 7.

 

Johnathan, what were you shooting at or into?

 

[Zonie]

Seems to me that if we cannot discuss projectiles other than round balls then we also cannot discuss new materials for flints, any of the currently available percussion caps, any man made fiber, any clothing sewed with a modern sewing machine, any stock finish invented after 1865, modern penetrating oils and metal protections, any camera that is more advanced than glass plate technology...the list goes on and on.

IMO if we limit our discussions to only items made prior to 1865, most of the current posts and information discussed in them would be outside those limits.

I suggest that those who wish to use nothing but roundballs for projectiles should never use a elongated projectile.
Those who wish to include the bullets that were made prior to or during the Civil War in addition to roundballs should do so.
Those who wish to use modern projectiles in addition to or in lieu of roundballs feel free to do so but be prepared for a lot of comments from the purists who cannot tolerate allowing others to choose for themselves.
zonie

 

[Pork Chop]

I find it astonishing that this thread continues. It is like the energizer bunny - it just keeps going and going and going...

I also find it quite comical that the 1840 date keeps getting thrown around. Unless I am mistaken, the gracious host of this Forum himself declared that

Everyone gets to define "traditional" and the cut-off date for themselves. I had to chose a date for the Forum, so I chose the end of the Civil War, due to the fact that so many people reenact that event. My choice had nothing to do with the weapons used during that war. It was merely a date at which to draw the line.

Now that I am sure that I have annoyed at least a few readers, can't we let this die? :surrender: If not, is there documentation for swaged roundballs? Did they have chilled shot? I mean if we are going to split hairs, lets not just split a select few... :yakyak:

 

[tg]

"Those who wish to use modern projectiles in addition to or in lieu of roundballs feel free to do so but be prepared for a lot of comments from the purists who cannot tolerate allowing others to choose for themselves."

absolutly use whatever chokes your chicken, but don't call the modern bullets "traditional"
these bullets are ballistical superior to anything made in the past they belong in the world of the modern ML by definition.If one wants to use them in a Hawken fine but it does not make them a traditional projectile just because there were minnie balls in 1860 or sugarloaf bullets in 1790.These modern bullets are what was responsible for someone finding the need to re invent the ML to shoot them, I won't mention what such a gun is called.

 

[roundball]

This thread is getting kind of amusing...I'm deer hunting this season with:

TC Hawken Flintlock designed in the 1970's;
Redesigned TC lock assembly from the late '90s;
2006 GM .62cal smoothbore barrel rifled by Ed Rayl, West VA;
100grns Goex 2F made 2001;
Oxyoke NL1000 wool wad made 2005;
Oxyoke NL1000 pillow ticking patch made 2006;
.600" lead ball cast by Eddie May/GA. 2007;

None of those dates are exactly ancient...but it's my good faith effort at hunting with a little bit of the technology limitations that the settlers were faced with and I thoroughly enjoy every deer hunt I have with these items sort of representing what things were like back then.

The accuracy and effectiveness of PRBs has been well established for centuries, and caliber size can be matched to the game...ie: while I don't need this .600"/325grn ball for thin skinned eastern whitetails at 50yds and am just experimenting with it, it would be an outstanding PRB for larger big game like moose, or anything else on the NA continent.

 

[Kentuckywindage]

I was shooting into a log @ 20 yards. I was using t7 in my flinter so i had to settle for shorter distances due to the longer delay.

I plan on doing more testing on these powerbelt roundballs once i pick up some goex. 75 and 100 yards is next on my list.

Im wondering what kind of lead they use, its very soft. Perfect for a PRB load.

 

[Runner]

I don't care what anyone uses until they start to tell me about their traditional items and how traditional they hunt. The so called primitive season here is full of guys in truucks with scoped modern guns slowly driving the roads looking for something to jump out and shoot at. My disgust with that may come thru in a lot of discussions, but this is not one of them. I am still waiting for that documentation on civilian use of conicals in the US prior to 1840! That is not reference to a forum discussion limitation. It is a direct question to the people that keep saying it happened!
It did not happen. Since no civilain population in the US had access to, knowledge of, or used the type of bullets being discussed before 1840, that cutoff date should keep the silly stuff at home. It doesn't. We need an 1820 on back organization that plainly tells the truth and doesn't care if everyone likes it! A non-politically correct group of free trappers that tell it like it is and was. Once we move back before caps, 99 percent of the silly will cure itself or go away. If the truth runs them off, then good riddance!

 

[Kentuckywindage]

Hey! Im one of those guys that rides in a truck until i spot something! Only i used either my flinter or my sidelock with open sights. When hunting is slow and its in the 80's and you have a hunting unit thats 100 miles long By 100 miles wide, You gotta use that pickup. :thumbsup:

 

[Runner]

I never doubted that you did!

 

[Kentuckywindage]

This year was horrible for hunting. We're into 3ed season and its still in the 70's. Whats a pisser is when you walk your tail off and there are deer walking past your truck :youcrazy: That happened to me this year after a 3 1/2 hour hike.