Practical accuracy for a Muzzleloader

[shmrck1]

h-in-h,
and the time he takes to shoot them :imo:
snake-eyes :hmm: eace: :thumbsup:

 

[CG6018]

Thoroughly enjoyed your post, Rat. I've been shooting these flintlocks a long time while my .270 gathers dust in the closet, and your post clearly defines why that has happened. Thanks! I'll have another cup of coffee myself. :thumbsup:

 

To answer your question about accuracy, at 50 yds a good flintlock rifle will group under 1"--I have seen one hole groups at 50 yds with reasonbly priced Green Mountain barrels and round balls. The keys include starting with a good barrel, barrel length (sight distance) and your ability to use primitive open sights. The tightest groups I have seen or personally shot were using good 42" to 44" barrels, with fine primitive sights--good eyes help. Other key factors include working up the most accurate load--not necessarily equal to the most powerful, in fact generally not. Many hunters overload IMHO and sacrifice accuracy--when you consider that most ML hunting shots are well under 100 yds, you don't need to try to duplicate centerfire ballistics. The limitations of accuracy at 100 yds are more the sights than the inherent qualities of the barrel, added to the relatively poor ballistic charactersitics of round balls. I shoot only round balls and do not feel handicapped in any way--but I understand the range limitations--round ball velocities/energies drop off fast beyond 50 yds. That said, a .530 or even .490 ball makes a nice hole at 100 yds and will cleanly drop big game with a well-placed shot, ballistic tables be dammed. :m2c:

 

[Hota]

If you watch the movie Night of the Grizzley, you would think a flintlock can be shot consistantly through the same hole on the board. I am also prior military (US Army, 19D) as well as prior LE as a PA State Ranger and shot competitively as well with my Remington 700 PSS (Customized) and attained groups under 1/2 an inch. When I went to BP I had the same questions. If you are a seasoned shooter and have done competitions you will find that these are accurate rifles. I have been averaging 3" groups at 100 yards prone supported with a Lyman GPR a lower priced entry rifle with no customization. I am planning on purchasing a TVM Late Lancaster Rifle (Semi-Custom) I am hoping to sheer some width off of the group but to be honest, I am having an absolute blast just shooting the heck out of the thing. It is a different animal and I love the tradition of it. The competition grade accuracy has become 2nd fiddle. However, I will be getting involved in the competitions that these guys here do. Check out the competition link. Great info. I took my first deer with my GPR this year. I am very interested in primitive living and honing my field craft skills, just picking up from where the army left off.

 

[bart_anastasi]

Relaizing you are new to ML's and need a frame of reference to the differences between a system that operates on 7,000 psi and one that operates at 70,000 psi.

As I have said elsewhere if you are new to this and just got a rifle ( or you want to get one) you should get a GOOD user manual and you should read it first before you start choosing calibers and rifle styles.

T/C makes a good manual mine is about 80ish or so pages long and in it there are all kinds of descriptions of bullets, different lubes to be used, pressure and velocity figures for all sorts of loads for round ball and conical as well as sabot pistol bullets.

They also show flint lock and cap lock, shotgun and if you look at the descriptions and sketches of their various bullets they make general suggestions on what class or types of animal each bullet type would be best suited to.

Trajectory, velocity, starting and remaining energy and velocity from zero to 200 yards including path of bullet with a 100 yard zero. (page 88 I think)

The discussions on different types of cleaning Field/lite maintenance versus Home /heavy maintenance is worth the Three dollars purchase price in itself.

Not for nothing muzzle loading is easy once you have the experience/knowledge to

 

[Gary]

Depends on the shooter. There are accounts of Revolutionary War riflemen hitting targets the size of an orange (Makes me think of the swallow question in the Holy Grail. :crackup: European or African or in this case, CA or FL? Whatever "size" an orange was in those days.) at 200 yards distance. I think that was for the best. The very best shot in America was 600 yards. I think that is unreasonable though and we're talking Olympic Gold Medal quality shooting. Walter Cline proved he could do it with 40% success (check out Nov. 2003 Muzzle Blasts).

The Shain brothers held a board with a mark between their knees for each other. Two riflemen in the British 95th Regt. duplicated it this feat at 100 yards for one another.

More reasonable for hunting (as we want a humane kill) is 75 yards and under. You don't want your game running off wounded and suffering (and never see it again).

Now, if we're talking conicals out of an average CW rifle musket, we're talking 500 yard effective range (for a shooter who bothered to practice with it). Even with this extended range, I can't recommend shooting beyond 75 yards (for the same reason as cited above). If we're talking the British Enfield of the CW period, it was found superior to the other guns at over 500 yards distance (and I've found accounts of 1000 yard hits).

 

Why scoped rifles that are ballistically identicle to modern rifles get to use the muzzle loading seasons is beyond me.Rat

Rat, now i know that you know why they are alowed to hunt with this type weapon in muzzleloader season!!
It is called :bull: economics .... better know as greed and one Game Comission / Division of wildlife is as greedy as the next.
It has to do with the Almighty Dollar and the Almighty Dollar only. They want to sell the largest amount of tags they possiably can, PERIOD!
They could care less about deer herd management. If it gets low all they have to do is stop doe season for 1 year and they are back in the money racket once again.

Woody

 

It is called economics .... better know as greed and one Game Comission / Division of wildlife is as greedy as the next.
It has to do with the Almighty Dollar and the Almighty Dollar only. They want to sell the largest amount of tags they possiably can, PERIOD!
They could care less about deer herd management. If it gets low all they have to do is stop doe season for 1 year and they are back in the money racket once again

:
: I disagree - I don't know your game branch, but with ours, the use of scoped side hammers, then inlines got our "Moose Primitive Hunt" cancelled for all time. When the inlines came out, there was an explosion in ML hunt tags sold, but the appearance of them in the hunting area got the season cancelled the first year they showed up.
: Another primitive hunt was started, side hammer, round ball, open metalic sights only, but it is for deer only. It survives due to the guys policing it themselves, for the most part.
: Cell phones are good for something afterall.

 

[CoyoteJoe]

Hey KRUNK, You say you want an authentic looking rifle but that you are considering a T/C Hawken. That may be authentic in Hollywood but I recall when T/C first introduced that rifle I was sorely PO'ed that they had the gall to call it a hawken. :curse: NO RESEMBLANCE!! Now I see a lot of people here speak highly of the Lyman Great Plains and I guess it is OK but I happen to think it has excessive drop and generally ugly lines. I'd take the Lyman Trade Rifle. Take a small block plane to the bottom of the buttstock and cut that shadbelly down to a slightly concave line. Likewise cut the pregnant looking forstock to a straignt line from triggerguard to end cap. Flute both sides of the comb and WAALLAAH!! (don't speak French) and that Lyman makes a pretty passable looking Leman! I've done it on both finished guns and kits and they look real nice.
Green Mountain drop in barrels will fit the Trade Rifle too and you still have the original barrel if you get an urge to shoot conicals. Best of all, the Trade Rifle is about half the price of a T/C! Now of course anyone can nitpick but it really does look Leman :imo:

 

[Jerry Gowins]

To answer your question about accuracy, at 50 yds a good flintlock rifle will group under 1"--I have seen one hole groups at 50 yds with reasonbly priced Green Mountain barrels and round balls.

Are production rifles considered "good flintlock rifles"? I'm looking at either the Blue Ridge Flintlock from Cabela's or the Pedersoli Frontier flintlock (both under $500) for my first hunting/reenacting gun.

Jerry

 

[Rebel]

The Blue Ridge and the Pedersoli Frontier are basically the same gun, maybe a little nicer wood on the Frontier. The Blue Ridge is made by Pedersoli also. They are a real good production flinter. The ones i have had all shot really well, and were good sparkers with reliable ignition once i drilled the vent hole out to 5/64". Don't think you would be dissapointed in one.

 

[OTHERN]

The effective range of a muzzleloader using a round ball is between 75 to 150 yds for most people. If you sight it in to be 3" high at 100 yd it will be close to dead on at 125yd and 2 feet low at 200 yards and 3ft low at 200 meters more or less. When you look down those open sights at a deer or antelope at 125 yards it will seem awful small and if you are using a bead front sight it will cover a lot of the animal up. The above is based on my experiences and ballistic tables.

 

[Stumpkiller]

Riflemen "can hit a man if within 250 yards, and his head if within 150."

--Virginia Gazette, 1775

 

[CoyoteJoe]

All this talk of roundball accuracy is interesting but no one has mentioned WIND, it plays hell with roundballs! As a rough (very rough) rule of thumb you can expect 1" of drift for each one mph of crosswind at 100 yds and more than 2" at 150. A 5 mph breeze will drift a ball more than 20" at 200 yd. Even an unnoticable breeze will open groups at 100. :m2c:

 

[cayugad]

Just to throw this out... On the history channel last night they had their programs aimed on the topic of SNIPERS . What I found most interesting is when they discussed Snipers or sharpshooter if you will, during the Revolutionary War.

They explained that many of the backwoods men were armed with Kentucky Long Rifles, which were their hunting rifles. They did not mention caliber but they pointed out Kentucky might be a misconception as these rifles were really rifles of Pennsylvania origin with German influence. They did a brief explaination of rifling VS the British muskets for range and then said that there were accounts of Colonial Sharpshooters making 300 yard kills with Flintlock longrifles shooting roundball.

For open sights and what they had to work with, I found this really amazing. They also said Sharpshooting or Snipers were considered unfair and not the proper way to fight a war. Mostly because the Snipers picked on the officers of the British Army....

They also pointed out that when Snipers were caught they were (and still are today in most cases) mistreated and tortured. It seems they are not a well liked part of the service....

 

[jim gray]

The thee hundred yard shot you are talking about was made by Timothy Murphy. Check the Revolutionary War forum for a thread about him.

Modern snipers are hated because they are feared, and generally misunderstood. A sniper can destoy a units morale and sap its will too fight. A sniper IMO is a psychological weapon. A sniper team(sniper's almost never work alone) can pick off individual enemy soldiers from incredible distances or get in close and observe enemy movements and deployments while remaining invisible. A sniper is at his most lethal when he can set-up and observe the enemy in order to direct artillery and never have to give away his position.

 

[Sun City]

If I had to shoot an 'inline'....I'd just stay at the house and play mubley peg!

 

[JimCunn]

"2 feet low at 200 yards and 3ft low at 200 meters more or less"

That's impressive, means it is dropping a foot in that last 56 feet.

 

[Josh Smith]

I find that, if confined to a muzzleloader's effective range, I can shoot sidelocks as accurately as open-sighted milsurp rifles, meaning, not very

We have dense woods here, and I honestly can't find a reason to use a modern rifle over a patched round ball from a .50 sidelock. I suppose that, were I to hunt the fields more, then maybe, but for what I do, I consider the smokepole my hunting rifle, with the more modern rifles being more toys.

Point is, within 100 yards, I cannot find any reason a PRB cannot do what a more modern smokeless round would.

Regards,
Josh

 

[JimCunn]

I agree with that.