P/H 1861 Enfield Musketoon - Minie Loads Help.

[sledgemeister]

Gday all,
I have just recieved from the states a couple of minie molds, one is a .575 lee 500g Minie and the other is a Lee .58 cal d/c R.E.A.L 440g Mold.
I have been shooting balls up to now and wish to work some loads up for both these molds, and being relatively new to BP shooting I consulted my Gun Digest Reloading book where it detailed a couple loads for the 500gr minie. I have a couple of questions though if I may indulge some of the more experienced shooters out there, it mentions placing a bit or "dabbing" a bit of No. 103 lube in the base of the bullet cavity? Could some one please explain why this would be necessary and what would be the complications if this wasnt done and what is 103 lube?
Also I will be making some lube up for these bullets out of the ingredients I can get hold of here where I live, ie dripping(lard) beeswax, olive oil, parraffin etc does any one have any recipe's that they find work more better than commercially available (not that theres many in Tasmania), I was told by one fella I met that a you should be able to eat a good lube? ewww does this hold true?
Regards
Rob

 

[rebelyell62]

The "typical" service charge for a rifled musket was 60 gr. of 3f, some shooters will charge with only 45 or so gr. of powder.
The lube I use is a mixture of beeswax and shortening/ lard. Use enough wax to keep it stiff, or it will tend to melt of the ball.Fill the base too, if the minie is not lubed, you run the risk of leading the barrel.....trust me you DON'T want that to happen. Good luck and good shooting

 

[marmot]

Hello down there, Sledgemeister! My 1861 P-H 'toon is very accurate and a great deal of fun, I hope yours becomes the same! I use a lube of equal parts by volume consisting of Beeswax, olive oil and tallow, though I have found the beeswax/olive oil alone shoots nearly as well; it doesn't clean up quite as easily. I melt the lube in a pan, and dip the minies base-first into it, coating them with a THIN coat to the top of the last groove - needle-nosed pliers are handy, but generally I keep the lube cool enough to not present a serious burn hazard if I briefly touch it - a double boiler is a good idea when melting wax.
The lube in the base is put there by some shooters for the same reason as the lube on the sides - to keep the powder fouling soft and allow repeated, accurate shots without cleaning... the whole point of the minie. Some folks use Crisco here for that, but... There have been a couple of incidents in rapid fire where Crisco in base was blamed for leaving an oily residue in the breech which held a spark, resulting in a cook-off... no damage done, but disconcerting! Maybe, maybe not, but in my gun base lubing with Crisco causes erratic flight and tumblers, so I don't do it anyway - but it's worth a try - cookoffs are unlikely except in rapid fire (and rare there), and every gun is an individual. Also try some of the heavier wax lube in the base, because you just don't know what is going to work well until you try it in your gun with your loads.
I use a heavy 585 grain modified P-H style with 45 grains of 3Fg Goex - this has proven to be accurate out to 200 yards, and has adequate power to make clean kills on whitetailed deer (~150-200 pound animals) out to 50 yards. 60 grains of 2Fg also works well, but I shoot this gun in competition and the recoil gets old after 40-50 rounds... but for hunting it does up the power and flatten the trajectory a bit. Might need it for those Devils down there... :grin:
Hope this helps, and good shooting!

M

ps. Eat your lube? I guess that implies no petroleum products, which I do agree with. Nice knowing the combined lube and BP residue on my hands is non-toxic!

 

[oldarmy]

I just put a serious shot of Crisco/vegatable shortening in the hollow base of the minne ball and let her-rip. If there is any left over, just smear the rest on the bullet. Cleans up good and keeps the fowling soft
60 grains of Pyrodex should be plenty.

 

[paulvallandigham]

I believe that 103 lube is an old name for what is now sold as Wonderlube, bore butter, and other names. Crisco is an American Shortening, which is sold by that brand in both liquid and solid form. You would use the solid form. If you review the posts here on various lubes, you will find many recipes on how to make the stuff. There are many variations. The purpose of using an Minie ball was to allow the use of paper cartridges, undersized projectiles, and firing repeatedly, usually in volleys, by military units, without cleaning between shots. Battle lines were often no more than 50 yds apart, and with no rear sight, and habit of all scared people to shoot high, most of those minie balls went over the tops of the battle lines, until the troops survived a couple of battles and became " seasoned". Then they learned to aim at the belt buckles and the rifle fire resulted in greater casualties in the opposing ranks. The casualties in the American Civil War were horrendous as a result of both sides using these kinds of bullets, instead of the round ball. It was during the 1860's that rifled barrels, and the first breechloaders came into rapid use in military units. With repeating rifles, like the Henry, or the Sharps, and Spencer, small units could hold off overwhelming numbers of opposing troops, with the steady fire allowed.

If you do not want to, or have any need to be firing rapidly, there is no reason to not clean between shots, and then you can load the minie ball with grease around the outside, or with lubed wads under neath to both seal the powder gases, and lubricate the barrel to soften the powder residue for easier cleaning after the shot is fired. Lubing the hollow base may not contribute to accuracy, but these guns were know for minute of man accuracy, and were not tack drivers. Having said that, there are men here in the States that have worked with their guns, and become very accurate shooters with them out to 100 yds, shooting groups under 3 inches. I don't think they use undesized minie balls, but now that I have doubted it, I am sure someone will write in and assure me that is done all the time. Its been years since I have been around any military re-enactors who shoot live fire with their guns, using minie balls. Here on the flatlands, where shooting any kind of rifle is always problematic, most re-enactors fire blanks. If I have offended anyone, pardon my ignorance. I once saw a man shooting a .58 cal. zuave replica hitting clay targets off-hand at 100 yds. I think his bullet had a solid base to it, rather than the hollow base of a minie, but I was impressed with his shooting.

 

[sledgemeister]

Thank you all for your replies, I will take on board what you have all said and try some "experimentation".
I plan on going on a shoot tomorrow "weather permitting" and will try out some loads and different types of lube i made today.
I will report how I go.
Thanks again.

 

[oldarmy]

I had a Armi-sport 1863 springfield .58 cal. used a lee improved Minne design . 575 I think it was, it might have been .570 and with some crisco and 60 grains of Pyrodex. It could considtenty hit a 3" clay at 100 yrds.If the shooter did his part of course.

 

[sledgemeister]

Gday All,
Well yesterday proved interesting, myself and a friend went bush on a cold autums day with a couple of black powder boomers. It was a fun day.
I had my 1861 enfield and my mate had his .54 cal hawken.
On arrival to our minnie rendevous we immediately set about putting up some targets, my mate had been up earlier in the week and set up the target stands (a length of pipe suspended between two sturdy trees with chains and two 1/4" high strength steel targets about 2 1/2' x 18" hanging off them) all we needed to do was place some 1/4' ply on the front of the targets and a proper paper target stapled to the front of the ply. He had also concreted in a pole with adjustable pegs on it to shoot from at a distance of about 65m or 70 yards. WE WERE SET!!!
I loaded my Enfield with 60gr of pyrodex and my newly molded 500gr minie Ball. the lube I used I after my last post here made of 50% beeswax and 50% pure lard.
The first shot hit slightly right of the centre in the 7 ring, and boy what a noise from the target Boooiinnnggggg LOL was great.
The second shot I had i lifted my powder charge to 90g of pyrodex same projectile and hit same level as the first shot but slightly closer to the bull well inside of the 8 ring about 2" away from the first.
The maximum charge I used in yesterdays experiment was 100g pyrodex the extra 10 grains lifted the bullet about 8 inches higher but in line with the centre bull, one can assume maybe that at 100m that this would most likely be spot on as other shots at this load where all about he same, grouping about 3".
I also tried some R.E.A.L. projectiles I molded and with 90g pyrodex where shooting high centre, I didnt persist with these ones much another time perhaps but I will lower the charge a tad to work out what is a accurate load for 50m at my club range.
All in all was a fun day with a good mate. the Lube I had made had worked well, when I cleaned my rifle last night there wasnt much manure in there and what there was easily dislodged.
The Bullets I made worked well especially the minnies 500gr, man they hit hard with 100gr pyrodex. I LIKE IT.
Unfortunately I wont get away to do some more experimentation (mental rest day from missus) for another couple weeks (I start night shift tonight)but when I do I will try some more variatiion and give the bench rest we have put in up there a work out the see what sort of groups shes capable of.
Thanks again for all your input.

 

[johan]

I don’t get any performance from my Musketoon , I have been using Lymans Bullet #575213PH and powder charges from 50 to 70 grains (Swiss 3fg and 2fg). The rifle wont shoot groups under 8” at 100 meters, please tell me the secret trick to get those rifles to shoot well.

/Johan