newbie needs advice.

[greaemonkey001]

Hello all! I an new to the forum and to muzzle loaders and am looking for some advice.

Some years ago I was given a smooth bore flintlock pistol, which has up until late been residing on my mantle.

Recently I began doing some research on the pistol, with the intention of learning how to make it go bang, so that it might accompany me on some of my forays into the woods here in the Pacific Northwest.

It is a Japanese made Tower pistol, I believe that it is .67 caliber. I have read through the threads on these guns on this forum and others, and it seems that the general consensus is that they are useable....but may require some effort to make them work safely and reliably.

My hope is that I can load it with shot, and use it on the local grouse that I sometimes encounter when out in the woods. My question to you.....is this realistic. And if so do you have any insight into proper charge, shot size, effective range, or any other useful tidbits.

Keep in mind that when I carry this, it will be when my primary purpose for being in the woods is not hunting.....so I don't require perfection as far as reliability goes.....but it must be able to humanely kill a grouse at 15 yards or so when and if it does go bang.

So what do you think? I it worth buying some supplies and experimenting.....or should I put it back on the mantle and find another project....


Thanks!!

 

[cynthialee]

Worth shooting and having fun with, but you need something else for grouse slaying.

I certainly wouldn't just let it sit on the mantle gathering dust.

 

[matt denison]

"It is a Japanese made Tower pistol, I believe that it is .67 caliber."

There were some good ones and some bad ones. The bad ones don't spark worth a darn. First thing you should do is get a good flint into it and see if it sparks the way it should. If it does then you are ready for the next step which is to beg borrow or buy some real black powder. Then yu'll need suitable projectiles like some # 7 1/2 or # 6 shot. (grouse aren't particularly tough and die pretty easy if they aren't rocketing dead away from you) Then over powder and over shot wads. Most everything that you will need to shoot it you can get from Track of the Wolf (trackofthewolf.com) among many other sources.

What would be really cool is if you could find a mentor to look over the gun and help you with loading it safely etc. This forum is chock full of helpful people who are willing to help you. Ask questions, you'll get answers.

 

I would say the main concern with that type of gun is to make sure the frizzen is hard enough for sure sparks. This implies smoothening the striking surface of the frizzen, red heating it, dipping it in hardening compound and boiling it for a few minutes before quenching it and doing it all again, then heating with no compound and quenching to temper it from being too brittle.

I would try about 3/4 of an ounce-1 oz of shot in front of 30-40 grains of powder. Naturally you experiment to see what works best for you starting light and working your way heavy. No. 5-7 shot. Real blackpowder you use of course for these flinters.

I have shot shot out of a pistol before and unless the gun is choked I would think its effective range is just seven-ten yards. I could score a few small pellets on a human torso target at 25 with shot but thats not the same as shooting for a grouses head. Try it at various ranges. If you can hit a tin can and penetrate it with the shot, its lethal for the game you will go after.

 

To add onto what I said, I was using two simple cardboard wads over the powder and one over the shot. Nothing elaborate. But what can you get with something prebought? Who knows?

 

[greaemonkey001]

Thanks to everyone for your generous responses. This is exactly what I was looking for.


It sounds like this particular gun may not fit into the role that I had invisioned, but as it seems to be in working condition, I think I will at the very least get some flints to see if I can make the thing spark.

If so, ill do some experimenting to determine if such a short barrel will produce a useable pattern or if I should just use it as a fun toy/conversation starter at the range.

Either way I would imagine that what I learn will transfer to a more substantial firearm. And as this first gun was free....I have little to loose if it ends up back on the mantle.


As a follow up question, I have read that some folks have found that wrapping the shot in cloth before loading helps improve the pattern. Does anyone have any experience with this technique?

 

[rafterob]

None of that will make much difference in that pistol. If you walked around in the woods with it cocked and in the ready position and caught a grouse right after take-off, you would have it. My Brother had one of those and I remember it to actually be of decent quality and seemed to go bang every time. It was good fun to shoot with that big ball in it. Not a toy, it's the real deal. Would probably knock a horse off its feet.

 

[bpd303]

I picked up a pair of them last year. One needed a lot of work to make it fire. Had to replace the weak main spring, lighten the frizzen spring and harden the frizzen. The other one worked right off the bat. Both of mine are 62 caliber and shoot good with a 40gr load of FFG Goex and a patched .610 ball. Haven't tried any shot loads though.
You might want to do a search for Tower pistol, because someone on another forum advised that they were no more than a pipe bomb and not to shoot them.

 

[Zonie]

I know some people call them things like "pipe bomb" but I have yet to hear of any of these pistols ever blowing up or even splitting the barrel.

I'm not really saying these Japanese pistols are totally safe but does anyone here have any first hand information that there has ever been a problem?

 

[Wes/Tex]

I've never heard of one of the Japanese pistols failing with use. My only experience was with one of the Italian versions which had such a soft frizzen there was no hope of actually getting it to go off. Not having access to anything we could use to harden the frizzen, we resorted to lighting it off with kitchen matches...first one taught my brother to stand back and reach in! Also learned shooter marbles turned to dust when fired against cement!

 

[zimmerstutzen]

In the early 70's there were dozens of models of tower flintlocks sold. Some were mere prop guns and some good quality shooters. One particularly dangerous one had an octagon breech section with a poorly
mated round barrel screwed into it. This resulted in a barrel constriction three inches from the breech.

 

[Many Klatch]

Zonie, I had a pair of these once. Both required a LOT of work to get shooting. One was a .66 caliber and the other was a .68. I thought I heard that the barrels were made by Miroku, so those were the best part of the pistols. Once I got mine to shoot I found that they were partially accurate at 15 feet.

I have never heard of a "Tower" pistol exploding, probably because most of them wouldn't go off in the first place.

Many Klatch

 

I have never tried it but someone else on the forum has wrapped measured shot in a paper cartridge that is very closed to bore size. No powder just the shot . Wrapped 3 layers of paper to bore size and held with string, maybe glue. Fella said it improved patterns out his unchoked gun. Now I am curious about using that same technique for my blunderbuss. Again, I would start out light on that powder charge. Maybe 30 grains. In fact, 30 grains is about standard for all my pistols I made. You wont get high velocity out of a big bore pistol anyway but its good to air on the safe side.

 

[matt denison]

I would say the main concern with that type of gun is to make sure the frizzen is hard enough for sure sparks. This implies smoothening the striking surface of the frizzen, red heating it, dipping it in hardening compound and boiling it for a few minutes before quenching it and doing it all again, then heating with no compound and quenching to temper it from being too brittle.

huh?? aarrrh.... better to not give advice than to give bad advice. :stir:

I have tinkered with several of these pistols to make them work. Only for friends or I wouldn't touch them. As I said, some of them are pretty decent and will spark/snap and shoot as is. Others will need extensive tinkering, particularly making them spark, to make them shoot.

 

[bpd303]

I haven't had any indication of mine being dangerous. I did proof both barrels with a double charge & ball. I think the naysayers just had trouble getting them to shoot.

 

[cynthialee]

I haven't had any indication of mine being dangerous. I did proof both barrels with a double charge & ball. I think the naysayers just had trouble getting them to shoot.

that would satisfy me

 

[greaemonkey001]

Thanks again for all your helpful responses. After doing a bit more research on these Tower replicas I decided to remove the barrel to inspect the breach.

First off, I found that my pistol was assembled with actual pins rather than nails as has been reported by others. The Breach appears to be threaded...but there is a weld under the tang that would make removing the breach plug to make sure impossible.

The trigger pull is very stiff....but if it is pulled....like a shotgun...rather than squeezed like a riffle.....it seems to work a little better.

As I mentioned earlier....the lock seems to work properly....other than a rather heavy trigger....so I will get some flints and see if I can make it spark. I'm not sure that I am into a DIY frizen hardening procedure at this point.....so if I cant get it to spark, I think I will just try to find a more user friendly model. I will keep you posted on my progress.


BPD303 above mentioned "proofing" the barrel with a double charge....I have read elsewhere a triple charge, lit from a distance with a fuze. While I understand the idea.....isn't there the potential to weaken an already questionable breach....setting up for a failure on a subsequent shot?


Thanks again everyone for your input.

 

[crockett]

On the grouse- maybe I didn't get you right but there are spruce grouse that inhabit the northwoods. These birds roost in conifers and are very tame. If you are out hiking you can walk right past them. If you have a pistol loaded with shot- you shoot a sitting bird at about 20 feet. No sport on this- just meat for the pot. If that is what you had in mind I think your smoothbore would be fine- like others have already said- a hard frizzen is the deal. A nice thing on the flintlock- if you get it up and running- you can also use it to start fires.
The tower style- it always looked sort of like a pirate's pistol to me. There were a lot of 69 caliber pistols brought in by the Northwest Co/HBC and the Museum of the Fur Trade has some sketchbooks on them with full sized worksheets- Maybe you could re-stock somewhere down the line and end up with a PC mountain man era pistol.

 

[Zonie]

Your correct. Proofing a barrel has the potential of damaging a safe barrel and making it dangerous to shoot because it over stresses everything exposed to the pressure.

The jet engine company where I worked for 40 years proof tested many of the parts they made.
Following the proof test the parts were always tested by some non-destructive test like magnetic-particle inspection or X-ray to make sure no flaws were introduced by the pressure test.

Some of the better automotive engine rebuilding shops have magnetic-partical inspection equipment like Magnaflux machines which they use to test engine blocks and crankshafts for flaws. They will often be happy to test a gun barrel for very little expense.

This magnetic-particle inspection should not be confused with Zyglo or other penetrant inspection processes that only test the surface of the material. The mag-particle inspection actually tests deep inside the steel part and can find flaws that don't extend to the surface.