My New (Used) JP Murray Carbine

[LeMat1856]

.
. AUG 5 / 3:45PM


Hello all,

i just picked up this used (euroarms)jp murray and have some questions:

1. TAKEDOWN - since there are no original documents, how difficult is removing the sideplate and lock ? there seems to be a problem with the trigger / firing. When i pull the hammer back to position 1 (loading) all is well - a firm "click" sound, the trigger is solidly in place and i cannot fire it - even with a lot of pull. However, in position 2 (firing) the trigger again makes a loud, firm click but when i pull minimally it moves backwards and the hammer stays put. By pulling a bit further back... "snap"... we have ignition as the hammer drops firmly - then the trigger goes back into this free-floating condition. I can move it back and forth with my fingers when it's in the "0" position (hammer down, unloaded).

the seller, let's call him "TH" in kansas, is an experienced bp and modern shooter. Claims he bought this years ago and never shot it (nor, to the best of his knowledge, did the original owner). I ran a pipe cleaner in/out of the nipple and there was definitely black residue that sure looked like burned powder.....

if you follow the 'for sale' section of this forum, you saw it advertised here for several weeks.

2. LOADING, ETC. - all the directions say use .577 minie and .570 patched rb with 60-80g FF. Does this sound about right for target shooting ?

3. GENERAL MAINTENANCE - this is my first rifle and the only item i own with "unvarnished" wood so i need to know what i should put on the exterior to keep it in good condition. Presently there are no nicks, dings, or scratches (amazing considering it has AU date code 1989). The barrel inside is 99% clean and bright with 1 or 2 possible rust spots. The brass has a strange black watermark type stain that is barely visable and *doesn't* come off after a good treatment with brasso last night. Otherwise there are very few marks at all on the rest of it - barrel outside is perfect, shoulder strap looks unused, hammer is perfect, only the right sideplate is unusual - the "JP MURRAY COLUMBUS GA" is gone and an engraved eagle with "US" under it is on the metal.

3. GROOVES AND LANDS - the ad in dixie gunworks says "...5 lands and 5 grooves..." this has only 3 of each that i can see with a bore light. Very strange. That also makes getting a caliper reading unreliable. Is there another easy way to get an accurate measurement of the bore ?

4. OTHER STUFF - i'm sure i'll remember some other items as soon as i post this and after it's too late to edit, so be patient if i end up adding something that obviously should have been in this. Oh, price.... let's just say about 1/2 what a brand new one would cost from dixie.

5. PICTURE - looks better in person. Nice dark blueing and polished brass. The shoulder strap has a leather reinforcement and the tampion is actually a brass knob with cork center. Even the ramrod is mint, brushed steel just like the originals on euroarms.net And, he said it was treated with ballistol and bore butter before shipping.

Any suggestions, comments, recommendations are greatly appreciated.

~d~

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

All you should have to do is place the lock in the half cock position, remove the lock screws and the lock will be free. I leave the lock screws threaded in a little and give the heads a light tap with a plastic hammer to loosen the lock a little. Be careful not to tear the edges of the lock mortise. Hold your free hand over the lock so you can feel when it comes loose.

These guns sometimes have rough wood in the lock mortise. If so, it's easy to spot and and easy to clean up. Could be part of your problem.

 

[Zonie]

just picked up this used (euroarms)jp murray and have some questions:

1. TAKEDOWN - since there are no original documents, how difficult is removing the sideplate and lock ? there seems to be a problem with the trigger / firing. When i pull the hammer back to position 1 (loading) all is well - a firm "click" sound, the trigger is solidly in place and i cannot fire it - even with a lot of pull. However, in position 2 (firing) the trigger again makes a loud, firm click but when i pull minimally it moves backwards and the hammer stays put. By pulling a bit further back... "snap"... we have ignition as the hammer drops firmly - then the trigger goes back into this free-floating condition. I can move it back and forth with my fingers when it's in the "0" position (hammer down, unloaded).
What you describe is pretty typical. The ease of movement of the trigger with the gun uncocked is normal. The important thing is that the lock is engaging the half cock and full cock notches correctly and it seems that it is.

the seller, let's call him "TH" in kansas, is an experienced bp and modern shooter. Claims he bought this years ago and never shot it (nor, to the best of his knowledge, did the original owner). I ran a pipe cleaner in/out of the nipple and there was definitely black residue that sure looked like burned powder.....

if you follow the 'for sale' section of this forum, you saw it advertised here for several weeks.
It sounds like someone has snapped a few caps on the gun. Perhaps it was shot but you didn't say the barrels bore was dirty so as long as it was cleaned correctly, no harm done.

2. LOADING, ETC. - all the directions say use .577 minie and .570 patched rb with 60-80g FF. Does this sound about right for target shooting ?
That load sounds a bit high to me. Minie's like loads in the 50-60 grain area. Patched balls can be fired with more powder but for target shooting you will probably get your best accuracy with the smaller 50-60 grain loads too.
Minie's are fussy. They come in lots of different weights and several different sizes.
The correct size should not be "loose" but it shouldn't be tight either. About .003 under bore size works pretty good.
IMO, the patched ball should be a .570 diameter with a .015-.018 thick patch.

3. GENERAL MAINTENANCE - this is my first rifle and the only item i own with "unvarnished" wood so i need to know what i should put on the exterior to keep it in good condition...
The stock should be varnished. It doesn't look like bare wood does it?
If it is varnished, a coat of a paste wax should be all it needs.

3. GROOVES AND LANDS - the ad in dixie gunworks says "...5 lands and 5 grooves..." this has only 3 of each that i can see with a bore light. Very strange. That also makes getting a caliper reading unreliable. Is there another easy way to get an accurate measurement of the bore ?
Three lands is pretty common for the Military Rifled Muskets. As for measuring, no there is no easy way. Being an odd number, 5 grooves wouldn't make it any easier.

4. OTHER STUFF - i'm sure i'll remember some other items as soon as i post this and after it's too late to edit, so be patient if i end up adding something that obviously should have been in this. Oh, price.... let's just say about 1/2 what a brand new one would cost from dixie.

Sounds to me like you got a good gun at a good price.

 

[Samuel]

Hi
The lock on your rifle sounds like it is working like all the rifleMuskets I have had, they seem to have a long trigger pull and you get used to it, also the trigger moving around with hammer down is normal also.

a 3 groove barrel is fine also, and not uncommon they work very well with the minebullet as the skirt flairs to fill the grooves you could also use a .562 ball and a little thicker patch I like the easy loading, I would use 40-50gr powder for target work and possible 60gr to hunt(original service load for 58cal rifle musket with minie)
I also like the brass to age a little (not shiney)but every one has their own Idea about that. I use Johnsons paste wax on the wood when I clean the rifle after shooting.
Also I use a piece of surgical tubing on the Nipple and the other end in a jug of-- water with alittle ( 2/3 drops) dish soap --then swab bore with tight patch it will pull water in the bore and clean the bore and breach area well, then dry and oil with Nipple removed

also remember these are not target rifles but can be very accurate with the proper powder charge and they can be alot of fun

 

[silverfox]

Looks and sounds like you got a nice rifle. I go along with everything Zonie said. It just sounds like a normal CW rifle to me.
Fox :thumbsup:

 

[LeMat1856]

.
. aug 5 / 9:20pm


WHHHhhhhhooooooo !

that's the deep sigh of relief i just exhaled after reading your replies - one and all - i thank you and will pop a round for each of you in celebration after i check the insides.

strange but true, one of my home-gunsmith books actually has a "how to" for an old navy arms 1864 springfield kit.. it shows everything *except* the finished lock assembly.. what a bonehead move that was.

this all started because i actually wanted a sharps carbine but, after looking at the prices (everywhere !), even a used one is way beyond my budget.. so the next best item, for me anyway, was this jp (i'm into brass, does it show - ha!) and the price was right.

now i just need to get the tube cleaning gear, some lead, musket caps (ouch - are they ever expensive !), patch cotton, and i'm off to the range.

btw, "unvarnished" is all i could think of. what i actually mean is "really shiney like it's coated with clear stuff so you can see the wood grain" - this stock isn't.. it just has a nice, really dark wood look (stain ?) but isn't glossy.

so, i should just use johnson's or a gun type paste wax to keep it water resistant at least, right ? sounds good to me.

~d~

 

[silverfox]

When you start shooting just remember that most of those guns shoot high. You will just have to use Kentucky windage,adjust your powder charge down or change the sights for better ones. For sights the simplest is to add to or get a taller front. The least problem would be if you can use a smaller charge say 35 to 40gr and still stabelize the minnie for ranges of 25 and 50 yards. It might be close at 100. Just shoot it and see. Should be lots of fun experimenting.
I have a Parker Hale and it is almost dead on at 100 but several inches high at both 25 and 50. This is with 55gr charge.
Fox :thumbsup:

 

[59sharps]

most minnies I have shot like 38 - 48 3fff. 40 to 48 2ffg for a good target load out to 100yrds. as stated under sized .002-.003. to high a load could blow a skirt off the minie.
presently in a cs richmond carbine I use 38 of 3fffg swiss or 42 of 2ffg swiss. for goex it likes 42 of 3fffg have not tried 2ffg goex in it yet. bullet i shoot is the hodgens skirmish minnie. method I use to develope a load is increase charge by 2 grns the group closes then
opens up again. then fine tune it from there.
if there is to much creap in the triger you can modify the lock. go to the N-SSA web page then NWT's web page directions are there.
when loading keep the hammer down on the last cap not half cock.
to adjust elevation use Jb weld on the front sight. file it to where you need it. for windage I think the rear sight is dovetaild if not fill it w/ jb weld and file it.

 

[Zonie]

The finish on your gun sounds like the finish on my Italian Zouave.

It is more than just an oiled wood but it is not glossy like a varnish.

Anyway, any good paste wax will do nicely.
That includes Johnson Paste Wax and Kiwi shoe polish.

 

[LeMat1856]

.
. aug 7 / 03:15am


to sharps59 and silverfox,

just a few more questions:

do you use a "sizer" ? i read something about these and need to know what they do and where to get a quality item.

also, how do you lube your minies ? again, i've read about stick type SPF and even pie tin melting methods.. what's your choice: prelubed, stick, melt-on ? (check this out: GOATLIPS BLACK POWDER TIPS [www. goatlipstips.cas-town .com])

one other problem is that i don't have original documentation and have tried to caliper the barrel by hand.. i'm getting .587 +/- and that seems a little high.. what would you recommend for a starting size minie and round ball + patch ? i found some cast .577's on gunbroker at $16 for bag of 50 - personally i've always used swaged so i don't have to deal with any spru stuff..

lastly, musket caps seem to be rather hit and miss - some have cci only others rws but both tend to be a little expensive for 1000 qty.. do you have a preference for either and a good online supplier i can look at ?

thanks for your time and expertise.. i started shooting with revolvers which seem very "cut and dried" when it comes to ammo and caps.. this jp is a whole new ballgame but hopefully, once i get everything, well worth it.. i can't imagine even hitting the target at 100 yds let alone good groups..

also, i'll look for some hodgens skirmish minnies while i'm at it.. need to get a good nipple wrench too and the tube cleaning system, and.....

it just never ends does it - ha!

~d~

 

[59sharps]

I get my sizers from Northeast trade co. in PA


I use the inside outside luber sold by Northeast Trade co. I put it on a coffee cup warmer to melt the lube. when the lube that came w/ it ran out I refilled it w/ my lube 50/50% beeswax olive oil. liquid volumne.or you can by lube from nothereast.

one other problem is that i don't have original thry the N-SSA Home page for a list of suttlers some sell minnies.
to check bore size take a over sized minnie start it down the barrel w part of the nose out turn it 1/4 turn then mic it (do several) this will tell you what bore size you have get a sizer .002 under the size you came up with.

color=blue][/color] back creek gun shop. I use CCI, RWS winged and now RWS wingless, wingless are about $30 1000 cheaper. CCI and wingless seem hotter to me.

off the bench at 100 yrds you should be able to hold a 3" group.


again for a one source nipples and wrench molds, brush jag bottom scraper patch worm and cleaning rod if needed Just go to northeast trade co again. Yes there are others Just easyer for me to deal w/ John, he is a fellow skirmisher that I know.
If you want a nipple made you can go to bloomquest.

 

[silverfox]

Guess I'm lucky as my PH likes its minnies unsized from the PH mould. Now how to lube I use bore butter and a little bees wax. Melt it on the stove in a small SS pan. Just hot enough to melt not cook. Then I take a pair of needle nose pliers and lightly grasp the nose of a minnie and insert it in the liquid until past the last band. Remove it and stand it on a piece of cardboard covered with wax paper. It is now lubed and ready to use. Hope this makes sense.
After you get the load and sight right you should be able to get 4" or less groups at 100 yards.
Fox :thumbsup:

 

[59sharps]

Guess I'm lucky as my PH likes its minnies unsized from the PH mould. Now how to lube I use bore butter and a little bees wax. Melt it on the stove in a small SS pan. Just hot enough to melt not cook. Then I take a pair of needle nose pliers and lightly grasp the nose of a minnie and insert it in the liquid until past the last band. Remove it and stand it on a piece of cardboard covered with wax paper. It is now lubed and ready to use. Hope this makes sense.
After you get the load and sight right you should be able to get 4" or less groups at 100 yards.
Fox :thumbsup:

to make things easyer get some of the plastic tubes skirmishers use. make up your loads put the minne in point first then dip them into the lube. dipping past the end of the tube will help keep moisture out. shot that ame bullet when i had a P-H mine liked 48 grn 3fffg goex never tried swiss in it.
my mold was 578 it shot a 575.
should have said 3" or less so yea on the 4" or less