Mountain Man rifles?

[ryoung14]

and I was buying a new rifle, I might well buy a smaller bore capable of being freshed out a few times.

Those who have seen small bore "Mountain Man" rifles...were the barrels' outside dimensions large enough to permit freshing out to .54 or .58?

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Who can say what Hollywood actually gave Mr. Heston or Mr. Keith?

The plains rifles were of various calibers, and often had 15/16" barrel widths or larger pehaps even larger than 1" barrels. A 1" barrel today for a half-stocked rifle can come as large as .58 caliber, so the answer to your question is, "it's possible".

Depending on the depth and style of the original rifling plus the outside dimensions, such a rifle could've been made as a .48, then "freshed" out to .52, then out to .56, and perhaps went to .60 OR..., ended as a smooth rifle in .58.

You would need to do lots of shooting, or give a rifle barrel poor care, to need a modern BP rifle barrel "freshed" out twice in your lifetime (imho).

LD

 

[Rifleman1776]

and I was buying a new rifle, I might well buy a smaller bore capable of being freshed out a few times.

Those who have seen small bore "Mountain Man" rifles...were the barrels' outside dimensions large enough to permit freshing out to .54 or .58?

I don't know that I have ever heard of someone getting the barrel on a modern made ml freshed out. The originals made of soft iron needed it periodically. It would take an unbelivable number of shots to wear out a ml barrel made of modern steel.
I say, get the caliber you want. If it's for hunting, the .54 is a great choice. It is capable of bringing down anything that walks on this continent, short of a big grizzle bar.

 

[Stony]

I don't know. I remember reading that on the Lewis & Clark trip about one of their first encounters with a grizzly bear. While the bear was chasing a few of the guys around, one climbed up into a tree and when the bear came by, he stuck the barrel into the bear's ear and fired. Killed the bear and it was an 1803 Harper Ferry. Those were .54 caliber. It's all in the placement. :rotf: Oh, and Mr. Keith had a T/C Hawken with the sights removed and tacks added.

 

[Greenmtnboy]

and I was buying a new rifle, I might well buy a smaller bore capable of being freshed out a few times.

Those who have seen small bore "Mountain Man" rifles...were the barrels' outside dimensions large enough to permit freshing out to .54 or .58?

If your barrel is one inch across the flats or bigger.

 

[smoothy]

As a poster above commented, you wouldn't need to worry about freshing out today's barrels unless it's misused. But if you start out with a 15/16" or 1" atf barrel you may be able to freshen it from 50 caliber to 54.

 

[Herb]

Here is exactly what you want. This rifle was made by Jacob Wigle, his name is stamped in a brass plate inlet into the barrel, in Westmoreland Co., PA maybe about 1820. It came west and had a lot of hard use, was changed from flint to caplock and the barrel was cut from about 46 inches to 35 1/2". It is about .40 caliber (the bore is rusted at the muzzle) and measures 1.045 at the breech and .930 at the muzzle. It was found in a dry cave with the mummified body of a mixed blood Indian boy about 8 years old, in the 1920's, and was removed in 1946. I cleaned the rifle and restored it enough for this display. Except for the rusted bore, the rifle could have been fired.

I built three copies of the rifle, having exact measurements, tracings and photos of the original.

The maple copy was my first, a .40 caliber, and I sold it to a great-great-great (I think) grandson of Jacob Wigle in Ohio. I researched him in western Pennsylvania. The walnut copy I built for my cousin's husband, whose name is Weigle, to his specifications, it is a .50. The third copy is also maple, with a .40 caliber 44" 15/16" barrel, and by the balance I know the original was 46" long.

 

[Trench]

What an interesting story! Nice work on the copies! :thumbsup:

 

[ebiggs1]

Herb, you are the man! :bow:

 

[Dphar]

and I was buying a new rifle, I might well buy a smaller bore capable of being freshed out a few times.

Those who have seen small bore "Mountain Man" rifles...were the barrels' outside dimensions large enough to permit freshing out to .54 or .58?

The writings of the time (1820-1830) indicate that the 50 caliber was considered MINIMUM for the west due to larger game AND the ranges involved which were much greater than in the east.
Also a 53-54 caliber rifle would use the same ball as a trade gun so if the mould were lost shot could be purchased that would fit the rifle.
Yes there were some smaller bore rifles used in the west. Find a copy of Firearms of the American West 1803-1865 By Garivaglia and Worman and you will find a lot of information on the rifles of the time and place from various sources. I think its out of print but should be available through interlibrary loan if nothing else.
The American Fur Company records have documentation for the rifles they ordered for the Upper Missouri Trade.
Dan

 

[Dphar]

PS
The small bore rifle that Clark too on the L&C expedition was useless for shooting larger game. I think this rifle was about 36-40 caliber but do not recall exactly.

"[Clark] 8th August Wednesday 1804
I took one man and went on Shore the man Killed an Elk I fired 4 times at one & did not Kill him, my ball being Small I think was the reason, [6] "


Dan

 

[Rifleman1776]

I don't know. I remember reading that on the Lewis & Clark trip about one of their first encounters with a grizzly bear. While the bear was chasing a few of the guys around, one climbed up into a tree and when the bear came by, he stuck the barrel into the bear's ear and fired. Killed the bear and it was an 1803 Harper Ferry. Those were .54 caliber. It's all in the placement. :rotf: Oh, and Mr. Keith had a T/C Hawken with the sights removed and tacks added.

YOU stick it in his ear. :grin:

 

[Joel/Calgary]

One thing to remember is that freshening the rifling did not necessarily involve the doing anything to the lands, If they were worn some but reasonably consistent, the grooves could be re-cut a bit deeper, and you could stay with the same ball and thicker patching or maybe lap your mould out a bit to match the wear. I've read (can't remember where) that this could often be done a couple of times before the lands were uneven and/or rounded enough that they would need to be reamed out to a consistent bore and sufficient sharpness, and that this reaming could still not necessarily be to the (then-current) depth of the grooves. Obviously, sooner or later, one would have to get the mould re-cut or a new one made. On the other hand, sometimes it might be easier for a gunsmith to re-bore & re-rifle if he already had the tools, including cherry, for a larger caliber.

Regards,
Joel

 

[Extranero]

and I was buying a new rifle, I might well buy a smaller bore capable of being freshed out a few times.

Those who have seen small bore "Mountain Man" rifles...were the barrels' outside dimensions large enough to permit freshing out to .54 or .58?

I can recall one BD Gill rifle with a Taos provenance that was 1 1/8" across the breach and only .44 cal. It had been cut back to about 35" and still probably weighed 12#. I don't think they bought them fat with the intention of boring them out. I think it was the style of the day. The wanted them durable to handle an accidental double charge and steady for long range shooting. Also remember that freshening does not open the bore up much. It merely recuts worn rifling.

Sean

 

[tg]

I agree about a lot being the style of the time . my cousin had a .32 cal riflre fukllstock that was late flint era and had been coverted to caplock and the barrel was 1" at the breech and it was not set up as a target gun and was quite plain and simple in design and decor it had a 40" barrel with a very slight taper it was about 15/16 or a bit smaller at the muzzle and was not really that bad to hold

 

[chance]

That is really cool!!!