Minie for hunting

[RedFeather]

Taylor's knockout factor, or TKO, kind of adds a new twist to the standard FPE formula that quite a few folks in the shooting world treat as the end-all, be-all. He factors in caliber. It helps to explain things like why an old nugget like the .45-70 is a bit more effective on bear than a smaller round such as a .243, although each may be equal in terms of FPE. Taylor's formula may not be entirely scientific but it is supported by field experience. He was basically concerned with what it took to stun an elephant, something important in his line of work. The days of W.D.M. Bell potting them point-blank in the ear with a 7mm Mauser had long passed. The remaining pachyderms weren't dumb.

I'm also into adult airguns. On paper, while a .177 pellet has the same FPE as a .22, the larger pellet often out-performs it. The TKO does show the difference. Try it. Might support some of your own opinions. 😊

 

[varsity07840]

I consider myself a pretty good shot. Where I hunt, 95% of my shots have been in the late afternoon. I want a rifle that knocks him down, rather than having him run off and have me track him in the dark. It still may be a lethal hit but I don't like them running out of sight before they drop. That's never happened when I've used a .54 or bigger.

 

[52Bore]

Been wondering about this for awhile now. Dont hear about folks hunting with these civil war bullets. Seems like they ought to be equal or better then the round balls in the 58 cal.

Your assumption is spot on - assuming you're shooting/hunting realistic distances (lets say

 

[RedFeather]

My circa '73 Zoli Zouave has never been spectacular in terms of accuracy with a Minie. Of course, I have not put enough time in it. One reason you might not hear many hunting stories containing rifled muskets is A) the sights aren't conducive and B) I'd wager most owners don't buy them to hunt with. Plus they is heavy.

 

[CapPopper]

Yes but i wasnt talking 59 fps versus 1000 I was talking 1300 vs 3200 the slower being 400 grains and the fast being a 60 grain projectile... On paper they are similar on actual game performance the 400 gr bullet will win on big game every time... A 300 gr 45 bullet at 1100 fps will go from one end of an elk to another and then some even though its pretty low on the FPE scale where as a 75 grain 243 bullet isn't hardly sufficient for deer but boasts a far higher energy based solely on velocity... I never said velocity didn't matter just that bullet weight and diameter were more important... Take the humble prb... It kills from weight and more importantly diameter... Sure a 60 grain 22 or 243 bullet has a lot more energy bit the mass to get the job done right just isn't there even at 3 times the velocity.... Tayloralso determined big bullets moving fast worked way better than anything else.... Even though he loved his .577 and .600 nitro express he put the considerably smaller 375 h&h mag in nearly the same category... He came to the conclusion that velocity without mass is pointless but velocity and reasonable mass were great but that mass mattered far more than velocity on things that can stomp you into jelly or trunk whip your head off your shoulders.... If you havent read it Taylor's African rifles and cartridges is a great book no matter what aspect of shooting you are into.... The man killed thousands of head of game and hundreds of elephant he really knew his stuff

 

[CapPopper]

I love that minie... I use the 50 cal version its a hammer... Bullet shape is important as anything else pointy bullets tend to poke a hole where big flat noses on bullets cut and smash a hole example round nose hardcast is worthless on deer even a 300 gr 45 at 1100 fps isn't a good killer but a 300 gr wfn or semi wadcutter will lay cape buffalo out and the only differwnce is nose profile...

 

[Sasquash]

I have no experience with ML and hunt....but I know that velocity is important.
With minié bullets you have 2 important red lines: velocity and lead strenth.....and PRB are less sensitive to those factors.

My Euroarms enfield shoots accurately 600gr minié at 290m/s....and for me, that´s not enough for hunting.
A 12cal shotgun loaded with an average bullet (Legia Brenneke), shoots a 500gr bullet at 420m/s and it is just ok for short range hunting.

I think, I would prefer a 300gr .58PRB than a 600gr .58 minié, because I can get more velocity shock and expansion at impact.

 

[RedFeather]

That is a shade under 1000 feet per second. A 600 grain slug at that speed should be adequate for most game, dangerous aside. Maybe not for longer range shots, but certainly within 100 yards or meters. It was not uncommon during our Civil War for rifled muskets to over-penetrate one or two men.

 

[CapPopper]

A slug has more than enough momentum to kill game at 200 or 300 yards just not the trajectory.... Ad far as power a 300 grain bullet at about the same velocity in 45 cal is considered plenty adequate for game up to cape buffalo by serious handgunners and some use a lot less... 10mm bullets 200 gr bullets only a little faster for cape buffalo... A 600 gr bullet at 1000 is going to go through darn near anything and leave a great big hole to boot.... Don't underestimate a big bullet trucking along at mild velocity

 

[CapPopper]

Of course im also talking about great big animals where hitting the vitals matters more than expansion.... Why do you need a hole bigger than 58 cal? Most expanding bullets in moderen guns get no where near that size

 

[tenngun]

I can see in my minds eye two men in a fight to the death. One has a battle ax the other a rapier. They close on each other and strike. The battle ax smashes in to the skull. It bust open like a melon. Brain has a third of it smashed. Part of the head falls on the shoulder, held on by just the neck muscles. He drops dead to the ground.
The other takes the rapier in his chest. Blood pours from blood vessels in to his lung out of his body. He coughs up ”˜purple blood’. He coughs falls to the ground, passes out then dies.
The ax is a killer, but one is no more dead then the other.
There is nothing wrong with a conical. What ever one shoots limits the range compared to a modern gun.
Some folks shoot traditional bow some shoot modern gear. What ever archery limits range.
I’ve killed lots of game with ball, knowing your gun and your range counts a lot more then what you feed it. Better a man with a conical who knows his gun then a guy who hasn’t tossed a ball at a target since last hunting season.

 

[CapPopper]

And when you are talking a half inch hole it doesn't matter how fast it was going Lol it's still a half inch hole

 

[rodwha]

Well, except that a pointy .50 cal projectile will tend to leave a sub .50 cal hole, whereas a blunt wide meplat projectile will often produce an over caliber sized wound track that's bigger the faster it is traveling.

 

[CapPopper]

Well no said a 50 cal hole... I would never use a pointy lead bullet on game lol though pure lead should expand pretty good anyways but a pointy bullet doesnt leave a 50 cal hole... Neither does a round nose really... The 360 lee is about the best profile I've ever seen for hunting

 

[rodwha]

You did actually:

"And when you are talking a half inch hole it doesn't matter how fast it was going Lol it's still a half inch hole"

And it has been shown that flesh stretches. A pointy projectile will allow that to happen and is likely why Civil War soldiers claimed the pointy conicals from their revolvers weren't nearly as effective as a ball.

 

[rodwha]

I suppose I should clarify...

Slow moving non expanding projectiles such as are discussed here and not pointy projectiles either traveling at extreme speeds or designed to expand.

Comparing the same weight and diameter the wide meplat projectile will always create the larger permanent wound cavity followed by a rounded projectile and bringing up the rear is the pointy projectile.

 

[RedFeather]

I think we are splitting hairs here. Yes, a spire point will cut a cleaner, smaller hole in the hide. Nonetheless, it still continues on creating a wound channel. The projectiles discussed here are soft lead, not FMJ.

And roundballs, if I understand simple ballistics, are not necessarily superior simply because of higher speed / flatter trajectories vs conicals. A heavy conical may have more drop but, beyond a certain point, it carries up substantially over a roundball. That is plain physics. Otherwise, we'd be shooting roundballs in smokeless guns. This is getting like flinters vs percussions, or "Tastes great! Less filling!" for the elders amoung us.

 

[CapPopper]

Well requisite for a 50 cal hole in something is that the bullet design will do it.... Pointy bullets leave very poor wound channels they kind of push things aside and slip through if they had used a wide meplat in the civil war id be surprised if the said the round ball killed better... Cause its still round and if it doesn't
expand will still make a smaller than bore diameter hole but its still a lot better than pointy...

Something like this

 

[wtilenw]

I didn't read the whole thread and may be missing something important but I have struggled sometimes with the round ball on elk and I shoot a 58 caliber. I bought an old 58 caliber side lock production gun (can't remember the brand right now) a couple years ago 1:48 twist and cast some REAL 58 caliber bullets, lubed them with a SPG bullet lube and loaded over a wonder wad with like 80 Gr Swiss. Accuracy was decent to 100 yards. I shot an elk with it and the first shot went through at 25 yards, she ran about 50 yards and was standing there (dying) I shot her again behind right shoulder, bullet hit opposite shoulder. She went down like you hit her with a sledge hammer between the eyes. I think they are 425 gr or something? I was pretty impressed but that is the only animal I have shot with that gun.

 

[rodwha]

I wasn't speaking about FMJ's. Soft lead tends not to expand once it slows down a bit. Some say it's around 1000 fps and on some commercial website it stated it was about 1200 fps. And so soft lead behaves as a non expanding. Add any bit of hardening alloy to the lead and it would take that much more velocity and/or bone to do so. I've had a few people claim their soft lead ball didn't expand despite going faster, went through rib/shoulder bones and were still found on the off side looking pristine.

Oh, and the permanent wound channel from a slower moving pointy bullet will be smaller than caliber, not just the hole in the hide.