MilitaryHeritage.com ( Access Heritage Inc ) Imperial Guard Infantry Musket. 1766 or 1777?

[Clark Badgett]

I think that we may be too hard on the accuracy subject. I mean come on....if it gets someone shooting why not? We know for the most part all the variables. Want to put the time into something have at it. we are thread counting ourselves to death here...

Come up with a more original saying than thread counting. That one was played out 25 years ago.

 

[FlinterNick]

I think that we may be too hard on the accuracy subject. I mean come on....if it gets someone shooting why not? We know for the most part all the variables. Want to put the time into something have at it. we are thread counting ourselves to death here...

Accuracy is a relevant issue for many, there are millions of gun enthusiasts and collectors that demand high fidelity copies of various types of firearms, not limited to flintlocks.

Same goes for cutlery and other reproduced replica items.

Accuracy is important, it’s not important to the Italian and Indian manufactures because there’s no real competition for them out there.

 

[FlinterNick]

IMHO, the wood detail isn't conducive to modern machinery.

Well wood is expensive, and even more expensive in poorer markets.

High Quality premium stock wood can increase the price of a gun nearly 300%.

Miroku used Birch for a reason, it kept their prices competitive with Pedersoli.

The goal of Indian distributors is to sell guns at price levels that are much lower than the alternatives.

 

[sussexmuzllodr]

Come up with a more original saying than thread counting. That one was played out 25 years ago.

I will work on that...

 

[sussexmuzllodr]

Accuracy is a relevant issue for many, there are millions of gun enthusiasts and collectors that demand high fidelity copies of various types of firearms, not limited to flintlocks.

Same goes for cutlery and other reproduced replica items.

Accuracy is important, it’s not important to the Italian and Indian manufactures because there’s no real competition for them out there.

Nick I get it. But as varied as our Hobby is so are the People that enjoy it. And also their Financial means...SM

 

[Clark Badgett]

Nick I get it. But as varied as our Hobby is so are the People that enjoy it. And also their Financial means...SM

Some of the cheapest hobbyists are some of the wealthiest.

 

[sussexmuzllodr]

Jim Kibler was a major shot in the arm for our Hobby. Quality stuff done right. But I think many miss the point. There are old and young people in our Hobby. Take a Guy thats 70 years old now. When he retired his nest egg was worth XXXXXx. Factor in devaluation of the dollar over x number of years. That individual no longer has the buying power of what he did when he first retired. A kit would be a major expense for some up in years. Thus the reason why they continue to service and make do with what they got so they can continue to stay in the Muzzle loading game. And yes some indian muskets sure serve appealing to some with restrictive budgets. I am sure that some of the old Guys have the tools and skills to turn that Indian Musket into a regular shooter. Younger fellas now working may have the means to get what they want. It,s all relevant. They will get there one day and see exactly what i am saying. As for me im still pushing my T/C and Lyman until they burn out. And they will still find a fireplace mantle somewhere after I am long gone.

 

[sussexmuzllodr]

Some of the cheapest hobbyists are some of the wealthiest.

Some not all...I remember a Grocery Chain...Slogan...."why spend More?"

 

[Clark Badgett]

Some not all...I remember a Grocery Chain...Slogan...."why spend More?"

I got a better one. Buy once, cry once. Many people are penny wise and pound foolish. Being cheap does not always equal frugality. If the first thing you do when you buy a product is to send it to another person and pay them to get it running somewhat correctly then that’s false economy.

 

[sussexmuzllodr]

I got a better one. Buy once, cry once. Many people are penny wise and pound foolish. Being cheap does not always equal frugality. If the first thing you do when you buy a product is to send it to another person and pay them to get it running somewhat correctly then that’s false economy.

Or getting what you want making it work for a self economy....

 

[FlinterNick]

Nick I get it. But as varied as our Hobby is so are the People that enjoy it. And also their Financial means...SM

Depends how you operate your hobby.

When i began my flintlock enthusiasm i started out with a Japanese made Brown Bess that I bought used for 400$ back in 1996. 2-3 years later I had a Charleville and a TN Rifle, all Japanese Made from Dixie Gun Works. Didn’t spend a whole lot on them other than finishing and maintenance supplies. I eventually sold one of the charleville’s and doubled my initial investment, bought a used rifle shoppe long land brown bess and a custom short land with the profits, a few years later sold them for another gain, started buying rifle shoppe, track of the Wolf and Nagrasent kits and learned to be a kit and lock builder. one rifle shoppe kit yielded enough for me to buy two Pedersoli’s an 1816 and a 1763, 1763 i sold and got another. I suppose the point I’m making here is that i built equity in my hobby, I’m not a rich man, learning how to make money in your hobby is like learning how to turn a profit in a small business. I since then have moved into buying originals and doing restoration work, restored original 1816’s and 3rd model brown Bess’s and 1777 charlevilles are some of the best shooting muskets I’ve ever had the pleasure of using.

What will the future hold for Indian repro’s? I’m not sure, but to Clark Bagget’s point above on a false economy, why spend cheap then hand the gun over to be defarbed or worked so it can be in good order or the way you want it to be. Its the money pit concept i tend to advise people to avoid, just as you would an hold home that needs new appliances, a roof and asbestos abatements. You have to really consider what your doing with your hobby in terms of costs and expenses or it will just end up costing you money.

It really depends where you want to be in the hobby, treat it like an investment and things change for the better.

 

[sturmkatze]

Come up with a more original saying than thread counting. That one was played out 25 years ago.

I prefer to be called a “stitch nazi”… “thread counter” is to Middle Ages.

 

[ArmorerRoy]

 

[Zapadach]

I grok that the Indian muskets are not exact duplicates of the originals. The N-SSA Small Arms Committee goes apoplectic, clutching their micrometers to the bosom, and popping tops on the nitro bottles at the mere thought of an Indian made musket much less have some plebe use one to compete. LAWD! What would Jeff Davis do??? I found the video that @Clark Badgett mentioned, paused it, and took screen snippets. Just for academic purposes, here are those screen shots.

View attachment 293669View attachment 293670
View attachment 293678

With all that said, my interest isn't original vs. Indian imports. I'm looking at getting a copy of a French flintlock after watching a number of 11BangBang's YT channel and thought that it might be fun to do a review of Loyalist Arms vs. Heritage Arms vs. Veterans Arms. A literal plethora of fake French flintlocks, if you would.

Just to have something to do and then cull the herd when I'm done...

I have held in my hands an original Springfield musket back in 1987. I don't know if it was a 1795 or a 1816, for I was not interested in flintlock muskets at the time. What I do find amusing though, is all the comments on how modern-day factory produced muskets, are not exact copies of the originals. I seem to remember, way back in time, when Robert Redford made Jeremiah Johnson, everyone was showing up at shoots and mountain man events toting these factory made, inaccurate copies of what were supposed to be Hawken rifles, and nobody seemed to care very much about it. Back then it seemed everyone was glad to see another participant, rather than critique his choice of firearm.

 

[Zapadach]

I think that we may be too hard on the accuracy subject. I mean come on....if it gets someone shooting why not? We know for the most part all the variables. Want to put the time into something have at it. we are thread counting ourselves to death here...

You Sir, have my deepest respect for the opinion you just expressed.

 

[sussexmuzllodr]

You Sir, have my deepest respect for the opinion you just expressed.

Thank You Sir.

 

[Clark Badgett]

I have held in my hands an original Springfield musket back in 1987. I don't know if it was a 1795 or a 1816, for I was not interested in flintlock muskets at the time. What I do find amusing though, is all the comments on how modern-day factory produced muskets, are not exact copies of the originals. I seem to remember, way back in time, when Robert Redford made Jeremiah Johnson, everyone was showing up at shoots and mountain man events toting these factory made, inaccurate copies of what were supposed to be Hawken rifles, and nobody seemed to care very much about it. Back then it seemed everyone was glad to see another participant, rather than critique his choice of firearm.

So we should stay at 1970s levels of knowledge? Stagnation always leads to decline.

 

[hawkeye2]

So we should stay at 1970s levels of knowledge? Stagnation always leads to decline.

We shouldn't but we shouldn't be critical of those who enter the sport with less than accurate equipment because of their financial situation, knowledge or possible other reasons.

Given the number of posts that appear on the forum about sales of, repair of and shooting of CVA, Jukar, Traditions, TC and numerous other imports it seems many of the members are still at 1970s levels of knowledge or simply quite satisfied with what they have. I won't judge them for their choices or reasons.

 

[Billy-by-gosh]

So we should stay at 1970s levels of knowledge? Stagnation always leads to decline.

I admire your self-reliance, your progress in gunsmithing and collecting antiques, as well as your acumen to build up a business from this hobby.
BUT Nah. Stagnation makes us Grumpy old men - just ask the 3 grandkids living with me! Fresh new ideas led to the Un-Mentionanables systems now in use and the "progressive'" implementation of in-line hunting arms. Been there and done that too; However, now I'm once again back to external ignition systems (stagnating away) where one can putter with old ideas and experiment with cantankerous hardware to coax out the best performance. Oh, I've got some nice antique arms - but I am conservative so they are all locked up and they don't see live firing, ever. Then there's the repros and hand built stuff that gets toted out into the woods and used up!
Bottom line: Maybe, just maybe, we should all simply enjoy the pleasure of burning black powder in front- loading firearms and strive to let our BP brothers live-and-let-live for our time remaining here on Earth's sod.

 

[FlinterNick]

We shouldn't but we shouldn't be critical of those who enter the sport with less than accurate equipment because of their financial situation, knowledge or possible other reasons.

Given the number of posts that appear on the forum about sales of, repair of and shooting of CVA, Jukar, Traditions, TC and numerous other imports it seems many of the members are still at 1970s levels of knowledge or simply quite satisfied with what they have. I won't judge them for their choices or reasons.

If it’s a matter of finances, buy a used musket, personally I think used ones have much to offer that some new ones don’t.