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Mainspring vise.

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brownie1934

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I am not sure where to post this but it is pertaining to gun building. I have used vise grips and a small bench vise to remove springs and have never broken a spring as of yet. Pushing my luck so decided to make one of my own paterened after an original that I owned.
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This was made with hack saw and files. The screw threads are double lead OOps now I had to make a 1/4 inch double lead tap. The shoe swivels .
The way I use it is to leave the cock at the rest position and put the tool on and turn the screw just enough to lift the spring out,. Surfaces are case hardened. Thanks for looking.
Cheers Bob
 
Bob, very nice, looks a lot like the Chambers tool. Rather than tightening, try setting the lock to half cock, then just grip with the vise. Then trip the sear. This captures the spring just right, per Jim C. and makes it easy to remove.

Bill
 
Bill; I know how Chambers does it but I prefer to remove the spring with the cock down. If you think about it , and you have to do something with the spring, when you install the spring you screw it up in the vise and install it with the cock down. Why would you even think about putting the lock on half bent to install the a
spring??? Think about it, If the spring can be installed with the cock down it is just as easy to remove it with the cock down. It's only common sense. Cheers Bob
 
Nice tool there that you made. I've got several mainspring vices of different sizes to use on just about every spring out there. I've pushed my luck with using vise grips and have broken springs because of them, not to mention scratching them all up which doesn't look like you know what your doing. Yes it is also easier to break the spring with the lock at half cock, guess how I know?
 
If your way works Bob, since Jim Chambers, LC Rice, and dale Johnson have well over 100 years experience, I'll stick with their way.

Bill
 
Thanks for the response Bill. Help me out here. Question // When have removed a spring and removed the spring from the clamp for cleaning etc. do you then put the lock back on half cock to put the spring back in? Really crank that vise.
There may be a mechanical reason for the Chambers method and I think I will email Jim for clarification for my own peace of mind. I just can't seem to get my head around the reasoning.
Thanks a bunch/ Bob
 
Bob, It's only for when you remove that you use the half cock. This a minimum safe compression, then you can decompress, until you are going to reassemble. There may be a mechanical reason Jim recommends it that way, or it could have been something some of the old guys told him to do :) Before I used the vise, I used to use an appropriate size box wrench like a cramp.

Bill
 
The problem I found with using the type of spring vise you have replicated is that if you place one end of that moveable jaw too close to the bottom junction of the V-spring, you DO risk breaking the spring there. I bought such a spring vise years ago when I bought my first gun. It worked fine on my gun. However, A friend asked me to work on a pistol he had, and the lock was too small and didn't leave enough room to use that vise as its designed.

I also have worked on smaller locks that didn't leave enough room between the top arm of the mainspring- or the frizzen spring-- and the bolster, or pan, respectively, for me to get that spring vise in its proper place.

I have resorted to using smll vise-grips, small C-clamps, even a box wrench, and finally the square notch provided in my Hawken Shoppe Flinter's tool- which works remarkably well.


If you remove a spring from the vise( to work on for instance, you have the problem of how to return the spring to the vise without " CRANKING on the vise" too much and breaking the spring.

Do This: When you know that you are removing a spring to work on it, and it has to come out of the spring vise-whatever you use--- put witness marks on the spring arms, and the lock plate to guide you as to how much the spring has to be compressed to be fit back in place, BEFORE you remove the lock, or take the lock out of the vise. A couple of pencil lines to show you where you placed the clamp, or jaws of your vise on the lock will allow you to put ONLY the same pressure on the spring that cocking the hammer (or frizzen, respectively) did before you clamped the spring in the first place. marking where the upper arm( on the frizzen) or the lower arm( on the mainspring )- the two arms of V-springs that actually move----- are located in relation to the lockplate will guide you back to the correct amount of compression, so you don't overdo the compression and break the arm off. The screw on these adjustable spring vises has enough leverage to allow you to GENTLY compress these spring arms. You don't HAVE TO CRANK them down. Over compression is the most common reason that these arms break.

[Yes, I have had a spring arm break on me, too. In my case, an examination of the two broken ends of the spring arm clearly showed flaws in the metal, and a crystalline structure indicating improper heat treating. Its amazing that the arm didn't break sooner. ]

As when working on any lock, leave the Gorilla in its cage( or in the auto repair department), and out of your workroom. :shocked2: Locks on these guns should be treated with the sensitivity that you apply when working to repair a fine watch, or clock. :hmm: :surrender: :hatsoff:
 
There are a few things that anyone who owns a Sidelock with a V-spring can do to lessen the chances that the spring will break an arm.

First, round all the edges of the spring. Most of these springs are Cast- not forged, and they will arrive with lots of burrs on the edges that need to be removed. While working on removing the burrs, using fine files, you can round the SQUARE corners of both arms with the file on both arms, altho if you choose one over the other, the arm of the spring that moves is the one that needs the most help. ie., on frizzen springs, its the TOP arm that moves when the frizzen is opened; on a mainspring its the Bottom Arm that moves when the tumbler is rotated to cock the hammer.

You will note that even a knife edge file will not get down into the Notch at the bottom of the V-spring. There, use a long strip of emery cloth, Fine, to extra fine, to get down as far as possible into the slot to help you round that inside square edge. Clamp the spring in the jaws of your benchvise, first on one jaw, clamping the sides of the arm, not the flats, using soft jaws to hold the spring and not gouge or dent the spring with the teeth of the vise. When you have rounded the exposed arm's edges( it doesn't take much- you are not producing metal sculpture here!), turn the spring over, and do the other arm.

Square edges induce stress to metal, making a place where the metal will fatigue, and eventually can break. Today's springs don't have the same fine finishing touches that you find on museum quality original arms from the 18th century.

Once you have rounded those edges, and the burrs have been removed, install the spring in the lockplate again, and look across the length of the lockplate to see if any part of the spring is Rubbing against the lockplate other than where the spring is supposed to be attached. If there is any part of the moving arm that rubs against any part of the lockplate, then do this:

Second: Draw file the side of the spring arm where the metal is touching the lock plate to remove enough metal to stop that from happening. Rubbing also induces stress to the steel spring arm( Whether the spring is a "V-spring", or a coil spring on a strut. I will get to coil springs later.) Take a couple of strokes of metal off the side of the spring arm, reinstall it on the lockplate, and visually inspect it again. If you still see contact, mark the spot on the spring arm with a ink pen, or pencil, and take the spring back to the vise. File it off.

Filing the side of the arm may remove that slightly rounded corner edge you put on the
Springarm before, so round the finished product again. It won't take much effort since you know what it should look like, and you simply are matching the same rounding look that you have on the rest of the spring arm.

MAKE SURE THAT THE LOCKPLATE IS FLAT! More than one lock has been presented to me, that had a bowed lockplate.

I used a metal machinist pocket ruler laid against the lockplate on my first foreign made lock, and removed most of the binding up of parts by simply straightening the lock plate. I rarely see this with American made locks these days, but I did see it once. The bowing was nowhere near as severe as what I had on my first gun, but it was there, nevertheless.

I straighten lock plates by putting them in the soft jaws of my bench vise and then slowly tightening the jaws of the vise against the lockplate- with all its parts removed, of course.

Third: Not all, but some of the traditional side locks have the upper arm of the mainspring fitting up into a slot between the lock plate and the bolster. The end of the upper arm, which is stationary, is often turned at almost a 45-90 degree angle to the line of the arm, and then forged, or cast flattened, to fit into that slot.

Understand that the closer you push the two arms together- particularly when only one arm actually moves!--- the more stress you put on that moving arm. Stress eventually will cause work hardening and take advantage of any stress fracture line to break.

The Upper arm often can be filed thinner at that "Tab", so that the tab goes up into the slot further. Metal can be filed off the end of the tab to let the spring arm go up further in the slot. This "opens" the V-spring, so that cocking the hammer back to full cock does not put as much tension( stress) on the moving arm. This lightens the hammer pull, by reducing the tension of the mainspring. We are talking about changing the Angle of the v-spring, compressed by only 1-5 degrees, at most, but it can do much to change the tension of the spring, and its working life.

I try to do this whenever I find a mainspring that compresses the two arms together and then requires further compressing of the longer end of the moving( Lower) arm in order for the hammer to reach full cock.

If the v-spring is designed so that the upper arm is attached with a screw, then I have no other choice than to consider reshaping the "hook" on the working end of the moving arm, or replacing the mainspring altogether.

Fitting a new tumbler, with the notches moved to reduce the tension on the mainspring is another option, which is also a PITA to do, and well beyond what an average shooter with basic tool skills can be expected to do. The same comment applies to working on a spring with a stirrup and rod that attaches the end of the moving arm to the tumbler.

Coil Springs for mainsprings: Most of the factories making these kind of locks use springs that have too MANY coils, to insure reliable ignition. It a CYA idea that some bean-counters came up with to protect the companies from lawsuits.

If you remove the lock so that you can see the mainspring actually work, as you slowly cock the hammer back first to half cock,and then to its full cock notch, you will see the coil spring compress, and then begin to move side to side like a rattle snake, with the coils rubbing against the steel strut that runs up the middle of the spring.

Rubbing is not good. These springs may last longer than the average shooter will ever shoot the gun. However, we always have those shooters who shoot their guns a lot- dozens of shots fire each week, and hundreds fired each year. That kind of use will accelerate the wear on those coils, if nothing is done about it.

Take the coil spring off the strut. Believe it or not, I have seen burrs and sharp edges on those struts that act like files against the tough coil springs. Remove the burrs, and round the corners of that strut.

Now, using a dremel cutting wheel, cut coils off the spring, to shorten it, and Stop the "Stacking". "Stacking" in a coil spring is what causes the spring to snake back and forth as the hammer is cocked.

How many coils? Count the number of curves of the spring away from its straight column when the hammer is at rest, and remove at least one coil for every two such curves to start. In most cases, you will need to remove one full coil for every curve. But, go there slowly. The spring is easily and cheaply replaced, but the first time you do this kind of work, you nerves will need some consideration.

Just removing the stacking on coil springs will improve lock performance, and reduce wear to the lock plate, the tumbler, and even the sear so much that after firing thousands of shots, the internal parts will still look like new, and work that same way.

The amount of force you must apply to cock the hammer back will be noticeably less- to the point that you begin to fear the gun won't fire. I have fired off my share of percussion caps, in my shop, without powder in the barrel to insure that the lock still works! :shocked2: :bow: :surrender: You can use a trigger pull gauge or a bathroom scale to measure the amount of force needed to cock that hammer back to full-cock. If the force is 10 lbs. or more it will work just fine. Most factory locks have that tension well above 20 lbs. :shocked2: :shake: :nono: And, the prime cause is the springs with too many coils, so that stacking is required to get that hammer cocked to full-cock!

Oh, you can buy the small bits sold for dremel tools, and use them in any powered hand drill, if you don't already own a dremel tool. The only time I tried to cut these coils with a wire cutter, I took a big divot out of the edge of my cutters, and the coil spring laughed back at me. :( :idunno: :blah: [ THERE! I just saved you the cost of replacing your favorite wire cutters. :grin: ] :hatsoff:
 
Paul; Thank you for posting this wealth of information. All good points. When I started this thread I said that to remove a main spring I leave the the lock with the cock down. Apply the vise with the swivel shoe as far up the short arm as possible and the floating arm on the long arm of the spring with the shoe as far foreward as possible. Take up the slack on the vise. With the double lead threads on the vise screw it only tales about a half turn to lift the spring out.
This is the reverse of putting the spring back into the lock and to my simple mind it seems to make sense. That being said a learned member on the forum took me to task because I should put the lock on half bent then apply the vise to the spring and release the cock from half bent to remove the spring. Now Jim has been in the trade for at least 100 years so must know what he is doing.
Now what I want is for some learned member to explain to me the folly of my system and is there a mechanical advantage to doing it Jims way.
To my way of thinking the least that you have to cramp a spring the better it is for the spring,. So please PROVE to me the folly of my ways so I can put my mind to rest.
By the way, I have been doing it this way for 35 years and have yet to break a main spring. Thank you for your reply. Bob
 
brownie1934 said:
Paul; Thank you for posting this wealth of information. All good points. When I started this thread I said that to remove a main spring I leave the the lock with the cock down. Apply the vise with the swivel shoe as far up the short arm as possible and the floating arm on the long arm of the spring with the shoe as far foreward as possible. Take up the slack on the vise. With the double lead threads on the vise screw it only tales about a half turn to lift the spring out.
This is the reverse of putting the spring back into the lock and to my simple mind it seems to make sense. That being said a learned member on the forum took me to task because I should put the lock on half bent then apply the vise to the spring and release the cock from half bent to remove the spring. Now Jim has been in the trade for at least 100 years so must know what he is doing.
Now what I want is for some learned member to explain to me the folly of my system and is there a mechanical advantage to doing it Jims way.
To my way of thinking the least that you have to cramp a spring the better it is for the spring,. So please PROVE to me the folly of my ways so I can put my mind to rest.
By the way, I have been doing it this way for 35 years and have yet to break a main spring. Thank you for your reply. Bob
Well I'm still waiting with baited breath!!!!
NO TAKERS SO FAR!!
Surley there are some learned members that can give me a practical sound scietific reason to prove thet I am doing it all wrong. Bob Reader
 
OK.... Bob :idunno: Your way is best, no doubt about it.... Nobody can argue with you now. :grin: And beside that, Paul's fingers are worn to a nub. :grin:

Keith Lisle
 
Birddog; I'm not looking for an argument. I'm looking for a good sound reason to show me the perrils of my system and "Thats the way Jim does it" only avoids a good answer.
Bob
 
Well Bob, I'm no expert for sure. But...I have removed mainsprings both the way you do it and by the "half cock" method. Both ways seem to work just fine. And there were a couple of times I had to remove the spring when held at half cock compression to do some polishing, then replaced by compressing just enough to install the spring. Much easier to release compression when held in the minimal mode. As I see it, both methods work, to each his own!
 
Emery; Nice to hear from a member with an open mind. Thanks for your response.
Cheers Bob Reader
 
Direct quote from Jim Chambers posted on another forum.

The correct procedure to remove that spring is to have the lock at rest, install the vice so that it will evenly compress the bottom leaf of the spring, and then tighten the vice screw just enough to allow the spring to be removed from the lock. Finally, once the spring is out of the lock relieve the pressure from the vice.
 
Thanks Tallbear; From what I can gather on this topic theres Jim C, Yourself, and Myself that got it right.
Cheers.. Bob Reader
 
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