Knife I made to go with some old cutlery

[pondoro]

We talked on this forum about using M1 or M2 high-speed steel to make a knife. I did it, it is hard, but can be ground and sanded.

I made a miniature (4.25" blade) trade knife, copying shamelessly from those I saw on this forum. 1/2 tang, ebony scales, one copper pin.

The other knife and forks are bonafide antiques. My daughter plans to use all of these. My small trade knife is to allow her to cook since the other old stuff would not be useful for cutting meat and vegetables.The one I made is pretty sharp.

 

[pondoro]

Notes on using M1 high speed steel:
1) none of my drills would penetrate the tang, including a carbide masonry bit. I used a Dremel cut-off wheel to saw a slot for the pin. I heated the tang dull red while the blade was wrapped in a wet wash cloth, this did not seem to soften the metal at all. It was much harder than an oven tempered file. M1 tempers at about 1100 degrees so I did not attempt oven tempering.

2) you can grind or belt sand it, if you are patient.

3) it will get really sharp, if you thin it with a sander before you start the sharpening process. If the edge is too thick you can get a sharp edge but the shoulder of the edge interferes when you try to cut a vegetable.

4) a Dremel cut-off wheel cuts it well but slowly.

 

[pondoro]

The handle was a tapered octagon but I sanded it which rounded the corners. I chose ebony to match the other utensils (except the bone handled fork.) There are some light spots in this piece of wood.

 

[brubincam]

My GRANDMOTHER used utenciles like that when I was small--wonder where they went ?

 

[Artificer]

That is a very nice small knife you made. Good size for a Lady.

I must say that two tined fork is a real treasure. In the 1970's-80's, I haunted many Antique shops looking for two tined forks as they are correct for the 18th century. Though I bought quite a few and looked at many more of them, that fork is one of the very best I ever saw.

Gus

 

[Billnpatti]

Good shape and good size for its intended purpose. You matched the handle nicely to the two antiques. Nice work! Based on my experience with very hard blades, be careful when storing it with other utensils since it will be hard enough to cut nicks in them if they bang together. Simply wrap it in a piece of cloth before storing it with other utensils.

 

[colmoultrie]

Two-tined forks are certainly correct, but so are three-tined ones. Look at George Washington's travel set:
Washington's set

 

[Artificer]

Three tined forks do show up rarely in FIW excavations and often in those occupied by the French or had French heritage in the area, who took to the three tine fork much earlier than British and British Americans. Often those three tined forks were the property of Officers or people of some affluence. The British and thus we "British Americans" hung onto the 2 tine fork longer than did the French or Spanish.

George Washington paid BIG bucks for his "Field Equipage" in the AWI and it was certainly first rate, the very latest in fashion and perhaps it is not too much too say rather "futuristic" for the period outside the very wealthy in Europe. Wellington had a four tine knife in his "Camp Set" that was as or even more high fashion and expensive and uncommon outside the wealthy during the Napoleonic Wars. But these were far from common place during their periods. Three tined forks do not show up in quantity in "the Merchant Class" in America until 1780 - 1800 and later in lower income or homes out on the frontier.

However, the two tined fork was probably not all that common in lower to middle class American homes up to and even during the AWI. Wood spoons were common and a small number of pewter spoons were considered "a treasure" to many lower to low middle income families back East, let alone on the frontier.

So the number of tines of a fork depended on the period, the cultural background of the people, and their wealth and status. A two tine fork may have been "too much" for some persona's up through the FIW and even the AWI, but it is far more realistic than three or four tined forks for a larger percentage of the American Populace through the War of 1812 period.

Gus

 

[LRB]

Go here to see 3 and 4 prong forks, from the 17th c. At least that is what they are dated at. No guarantee the dating is correct. Nice stuff anyway. http://www.scribd.com/doc/245277887/Food-Food-Preparation-Cutlery

 

[pondoro]

I've travelled a lot and haunted antique shops across the U.S. I've seen more cutlery, and reasonable prices on old cutlery, near Amish and the Amana colonies. My theory is that they kept using the old styles longer, so they ended up entering the "Antique Suplly Chain" later. The fur trader's old forks probably wore out or got scrapped before antique stores existed. The Amish and Amana people may have hung on to those styles into the 60's or 70's. I do not know this, just speculating. I find the same situation with large cast iron pots.

By the way George Washinton's cutlery does look rather stylish, almost Art Deco! I'd call him out on it if I met him at an event.

 

[BillinOregon]

Wick, that link was quite an education. Thank you.
I wonder what the thinking was behind the incredibly long tines on the two-prong forks. They seem only to serve to make the fork even more dangerous.

 

[pondoro]

Go here to see 3 and 4 prong forks, from the 17th c. At least that is what they are dated at. No guarantee the dating is correct. Nice stuff anyway. http://www.scribd.com/doc/245277887/Food-Food-Preparation-Cutlery[/quote]

I finally learned to make "Scribd" reasonably well. Thanks, this is a great link.

I too have wondered how safe these old metal forks with the pointed tines are. I wonder if people carved with the forks but then ate with their fingers, or off the knives. The old knives seem safer.

 

[Artificer]

That's a great link to some truly exceptional cutlery and some period images! Thank you.

Three tined forks are mentioned in some wealthy Pre AWI century homes for eating syrupy and sometimes preserved fruits.

18th century tableware/cutlery etiquette also varied by nationality and status and that influenced their tableware. The French more commonly speared/held meat with the fork in the left hand to cut it and then put the fork down and picked it up with the right hand to transfer the cut meat to the mouth. (What is probably considered "Polite" today.) The British and British Americans sometimes/often eschewed this as "too effeminate," in the early through mid 18th century. They often used the fork mainly to spear something off a platter and hold it to cut, then used either the knife or spoon to transfer it to the mouth. This practice went on for a long time in America and how many people here remember being taught that "In Polite Society, one does not eat peas with their Knife?" Hence, the two tine fork held out for a longer period, here.

During the AWI, it was still expected that senior Officers and Generals would bring their own knives, forks and spoons with them when invited for a meal. General Washington was expected to sometimes host meals to other Senior Officers and his personal and elaborate Mess Equipment held 9 plates for himself and guests. Additional forks and knives have been suggested for guests who did not have their cutlery with them or on the spur of the moment. However it seems that for whatever reason, Washington's Mess Chest only included Two Forks (both Two Tined) and Four Knives. It seems to have been planned that way and not the result of losing or damaging two forks to accompany the other two knives. Maybe the two forks were only used to spear food off platters and were kept with the platters when the food was served; but they are the correct size for an Individual's fork and not a true serving fork. Was one of the forks for Washington for his normal meals from his own mess and the other for a visitor? No one seems to know for certain. Washington's glass salt and pepper shakers were certainly not common mess equipment either, and look like they belonged to a much later era.
http://ids.si.edu/ids/deliveryService?responseType=location&id=NMAH-99-4030


Still, unless one is doing an interpretation of the wealthy in the 18th through early 19th century, a two tine fork was more common for more people.

Gus

 

[colmoultrie]

Still, unless one is doing an interpretation of the wealthy in the 18th through early 19th century, a two tine fork was more common for more people.

Gus

Or one is a runaway indentured servant with the master's cutlery in his snapsack. :wink: My fork from Townsend is two-tined, but three tines is not out of the question for the era, although I agree, they were much less common.

 

[Free Plunder]

Grandmother had old cutlery and knives like the one with the round tip in the OP photo. They were as sharp as razors and she kept them that way. she had a piece of old salt glazed pickle pot rim and used it as the sharpening stone for those knives. I once asked my father why the "table knives" were so sharp, unlike other places, and his response "easier to cut that Chicago meat than chew it", they walked them cows from somewhere in the plains to the railroad and shipped them to Chicago and cut them up there. If they tough enough to live through that they're tough to eat.