Introduction / Horse Pistols

[fly-by]

Hello,

Just wanted to introduce myself. I was drawn to muzzleloading for the special season here in WA, but have quickly become equally interested in the weapons themselves. I recently bought a rifle from another member and am anxiously awaiting its arrival. Seeing the firearms research subforum reminded me of the horse pistols that my great grandfather purchased in 1961. Is anyone familiar with this type of pistol? Thanks!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/76018932@N04/sets/72157631762454573/

 

[Jim Blair]

They look French,any markings on the lock plates-
http://www.reemandansie.com/index.php?_a=viewProd&productId=59867

 

[fly-by]

Thanks for the link. It would make sense that they might be French coming from Louisiana in the early 1800s. No markings on the lockplates, just a "13" and "17" stamped in the brass on the opposite side of the lockplate. One of them has an "L" stamped under the number.

 

[F.G. Ford]

Hello Fly-By,
Welcome to this great refuge, I find it great and informative.
Your pistols look like copies of French Charelville pistols probably .69 caliber, and smooth bore.
Navy Arms imported them many years ago, I believe Dixie Gun Works also imported them.
I think you will find Belgian proof marks on them.
I hope this helps.
Old Ford

 

[fly-by]

Old Ford -

They are indeed .69 smoothbore. Can you tell me what a Belgian proof mark might look like, and are there any telltale signs of a replica vs original? It would be disappointing to find out the whole provenance had been fabricated and my great grandfather duped...

Jason

 

[Jim Blair]

Belgian Proof Marks-
http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/17575181

If the date of purchase is accurate,that particular pistol was not being reproduced at that time by either Dixie or Navy Arms to my knowledge.

 

[fly-by]

The only visible marks are the 13 and 17 and a which are in a couple of places on each pistol, and one letter L. Is it typical for the proof marks to be on the underside of the barrel, requiring disassembly?

I'm pretty confident in the 1961 portion of the story as I inherited them in 1979 and remember seeing them displayed in my great grandparents' house in the early 70s. Hopefully this pre-dates the replicas.

 

[Jim Blair]

Sometimes you have to take the barrels out of the stocks to see the proof marks.Sometimes there are also markings on the inside of the locks.Reproduction firearms generally have the proofs and makers markings in a location visible without disassembling the firearm or evidence of their removal by filing or grinding.

Those pistols appear to be original from the pictures but heavily cleaned at some point as was often done years ago.

 

[fly-by]

Thank you for all your help.

 

[flintriflesmith]

They appear (90% certianty) to be old (not reproductions) but have been refinished which would hurt their collector's value.
Gary

 

[Jim Blair]

The 13 and 17 are probably rack numbers.The one with the "L" was most likely one of a pair issued to a mounted unit which would have been marked L17 and R17 for carrying in saddle mounted holsters during the original period of issue by the French.

 

[fly-by]

If they are not that collectable, any suggestions on how to check if they are safe to shoot?

 

[Jim Blair]

Still collectable but not high end values.To determine shoot ability barrels should be examined by a knowledgeable person for heavy pitting,cracks,or other defects.In the interest of current safety have you checked to make sure the barrels don't have a load in them now?It sometimes happens.

Do a google search for French Flintlock Type Year XIII Flintlock Pistol for sale,you might be surprised at the value of yours even in the condition they are in.This site does not allow postings of auction listings.

 

[statetrooper62]

Hello, this pistol looks like a french pistol 1816 or 1822 model but with a trigger guard ( in oil drop shape ) of a french pistol an13 model ( pistolet an XIII ).
Almost all of those pistols were turned into percussion pistols.

It's odd that no more markings are visible.

Some links about french guns. http://www.lapistole.com/1816 S C.html

http://armesfrancaises.free.fr/pist%20mle%201822T.html

 

[Jim Blair]

Thanks for those links clarifying the model. :thumbsup:

 

[DOUBLEDEUCE 1]

Very interesting story and links. I think you have a treasure. :thumbsup:

 

[Wes/Tex]

The pistols are indeed the M.1816 flintlock pistols issued and carried by the French cavalry from the time of the Second Restoration in late 1815-1816. The earlier M.Anno XIII had a front barrel ring that sloped forward from the top. The M.1822 was the percussion version of this same pistol. They were to be issued in pairs to mounted units of the French cavalry. Actual issue dates and availability are questionable considering European history at the time. Interestingly enough, units at the end of the Napoleonic era sometimes carried their pistols clipped to the carbine belts in lieu of unavailable carbines...just an interesting tid-bit.