Improved hooked breech accuracy.

[Skychief]

I've had a custom built half stocked 45 caliber for several years. It has a hooked breech with two keys through the forestock.

Love the gun....fits great, holds nice, pretty wood, etc. The problem with it until today's range session has been a lack of accuracy. The rifle would only give 60 yard groups in the 3-4" neighborhood. Double those measurements at 100. No amount of tinkering with loads would make it shoot tighter than that.

Today I tried something that got it shooting as good as I could hold it and as well as I can use its sights. One inch groups from a shoddy rest at 60 yards became monotonous. While I had on hand Goex 2f and 3f, as well as a pound of Swiss 3f, I only used the Goex 2f as I was completely satisfied with the groups the rifle finally delivered.

I used 70 and 45 grain loads. After finding the rifle shooting well at 60, I stretched it out to 100 yards and hit to point of aim there as well.

The big "fix" today involved a pure lead roundball, a hammer, and a pocket knife.

I hammered the ball flat into a sheet of lead. I would guess the thickness of a lot of pillow ticking. Maybe a hair thicker.

Then cut two pieces of the lead to fit between the end of the breech (on either side of the hook), and the receiving tang.

When putting the barrel back into the stock to receive the two keys, I could feel a bit of resistance as the breech mated with the tang, squishing the lead shims a bit. The rifle sure felt snug as I drove the keys home.

After this bit of "shade tree mechanic-ing", the fine accuracy arrived as described above!

So simple, so easy. I wish I'd done this years ago as the rifle is a completely different animal now.

As rain moved in, I abbreviated the session and cleaned her up on the porch.

The forecast looks good tomorrow and there's no mowing or other chores to see to, so, I might just dirty her up again then.

Wanted to share this. Maybe it'll help others with hook breeched rifles that don't seem to be giving their all. :thumbsup:

Best regards, Skychief

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Skychief,

I'm Really pleased you found a simple fix, even if it Did take a while!
That breech must have been made awful shoddy to need shimming like that.

(I thought for a start you were going to say you hammered out the lead to make a Lead Patch...and were Hammering it down the barrel'round the ball LOL!

 

[George]

Interesting. I don't believe I've ever seen a problem with hooked breech mentioned. Could you see something amiss, poor mating, loose fit, gap, etc.?

Spence

 

[azmntman]

Skychief,

I'm Really pleased you found a simple fix, even if it Did take a while!
That breech must have been made awful shoddy to need shimming like that.

(I thought for a start you were going to say you hammered out the lead to make a Lead Patch...and were Hammering it down the barrel'round the ball LOL!

:metoo: :haha:

 

[Skychief]

Interesting. I don't believe I've ever seen a problem with hooked breech mentioned. Could you see something amiss, poor mating, loose fit, gap, etc.?

Spence

Greetings Spence :bow:

The only hint that something was amiss (beyond it's performance), was the keys seemed a bit loose when the rifle was together. Not terrible, but looser than one would expect.

Visually, the breech/tang mating seemed fine and the barrel showed no discernable movement. The gentleman builder of the rifle turns out very nice guns. I own two, the other being a 45 fullstock flinter. It's a beautiful rifle too and a tack driver. Both wear Green Moutain barrels.

So, outside of the wedges seeming a tad loose, all else seemed fine.

In any case, the difference was startling and I can't say how pleased I am that this beauty shoots now!

All the best, Sky' :hatsoff:

 

[George]

Yeah, it's great when you start hitting what you aim at. :haha:

I assume the breech is the standard configuration, a rectangular slot in the standing part and an actually hooked bit to fit into it? I'm surprised you had enough room to put lead shims into it, most hooked breeches I've had experience with wouldn't seat completely with any thickness of lead in between.

Spence

 

[Skychief]

Now that you've asked, I believe the "hook" on this breech is unlike ones I am more familiar with, Thompson Centers.

I believe the TCs have a lip of sorts at the very end of the hook which cams it in place smartly.

This breech comes sans that sort of lip. I would call it more of an angled stud or bolster.

If I shoot tomorrow, I will compare the two. :hmm:

Best regards, Skychief

PS, I also shoot a rifle made by a gentleman from Shelbyville Indiana, whose name escapes me at the moment. He passed away I recall during the big 1978 blizzard from a heart attack. Blast it! Can anyone reading this provide his name?

In any case, his rifle has a similar patent breech arrangement. More of a bolster, than a hook to mate with the tang.

 

[George]

Yes, it seems that cam action would be important, but maybe not as much as I used to think. I have a double shotgun with hooked breech unlike any I've seen before. It has tapered round studs on the breech of each barrel and matching round holes in the standing part. It fits snuggly, the tapered fit with a little pressure seems to work fine. Not a rifle, of course, but I can shoot 1 1/2" groups at 25 yards with each barrel with only a bead front sight, so it seems to work. After 28 years it still fits precisely.







Spence

 

[BrownBear]

I'm surprised by the change in accuracy, but happy you found the fix. Only time I've seen anything similar was in a rifle with a tang sight and loose barrel. Tightening the barrel tightened the groups, as you'd expect.

But with the rear sight on the barrel where it would move right along with the barrel, I'm kinda baffled.

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
A properly made hook and tang (called a standing breech) will never have problems as you describe. The photo below shows a breech I made for my latest English fowler project. It is copied from 2 original 1760s fowlers in my collection. Note the hole tapers getting narrower at the top. The hook, which is a simple curved hook, no unnecessary cam, is also tapered to fit the hole.

The taper allows the hook to go in easily but then snug up firmly when fully in place. Note the lug on the bottom of the tang. A cross pin goes through that lug, firmly anchoring the bottom of the breech in the stock. Also note that the hook does not extend very far back into the wood, unlike the TC breech. That ensures the rear lock bolt will clear the hook. Breeches made and installed this way on my 250 year old guns are as snug and firm today as they probably were the day they left the shop.

dave

 

[will5a1]

"PS, I also shoot a rifle made by a gentleman from Shelbyville Indiana, whose name escapes me at the moment. He passed away I recall during the big 1978 blizzard from a heart attack. Blast it! Can anyone reading this provide his name?

In any case, his rifle has a similar patent breech arrangement. More of a bolster, than a hook to mate with the tang."
[/quote]

John Tingle Sr, had his shop in Shelbyville, he passed away of a heart attack during that blizzard on the way to his mailbox if I recall correctly; he used a sort of round extension (at least that is what is on my two Tingle rifles) - glad you found a fix, sorting through accuracy issues can be maddening, at least for me.

Are you going to glue the shims in place?

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Dave,

Always nice to see your Very tidy work.

When did they start putting the screw into the bottom of the standing breech?

I have no references for this.

Thanks in advance,

Richard.

 

[dave_person]

Hi Richard,
I assume the lug and cross pin was always used at least during the 18th century. On some breeches there was a screw that came up from underneath the trigger guard and threaded into the bottom of the breech. I find it very disappointing that almost none of the modern made breeches are set up for a cross pin or screw. It really helps to keep the tang anchored in the stock.

dave

 

[George]

A properly made hook and tang (called a standing breech)....

I also find the terms "double breech", "false breech" and "draw britch" in the literature, which I assume all refer to our hooked breech.

In the same way, I've found "breech screw" and "breech pin", but never our breech plug.

Spence

 

[Rifleman1776]

John Tingle Sr, had his shop in Shelbyville, he passed away of a heart attack during that blizzard on the way to his mailbox

Very unfortunate. Tough way to go. I met him once. His sideslapper rifles were/are much in demand. His concave cheek rest was unique and his prices very reasonable.