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Image of Manton patent breech?

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Canuck Bob

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Does anyone have a diagram of Manton's patented breech? I've searched here and on Google to no avail.

I do not wish to burden the group with another lengthy patent breech thread. The recent thread on patent breeches was an incredible education. I'm only interested in the difference between Nock's and Manton's breech as it pertains to the era of rifles I'm trying to study, the latest flintlock English sporting rifle.
 
This long winded discussion may shed some light on your question.

Joseph Manton is credited with some interesting Patents. In 1806 he Patented the Double Barrel elevated rib which greatly improved long range accuracy.

He Patented a Flintlock which had “gravitating stops” on the outside of the lockplate.
These stops were designed to block the possible falling of the cock when the gun was in a vertical position.
By doing this, the gun could be safely loaded without fear of an accidental discharge. When the gun was returned to a position other than vertical, gravity caused the stops to fall and free the cock(s) for normal use.

As Nock had Patented his famous “Patent Breech” which used a small “anti-chamber” to create a jet of fire into the primary powder charge for improved ignition, I have read (although I cannot find it at the moment) that Joseph Manton created a Chambered Breech (a smaller than bore sized chamber concentric with the bore) and this design allowed him to move the locks inboard while keeping the length of the vent short for fast ignition.
I don’t know that he Patented this design but based on his numerous other patents he very likely did.

Based on my reading this drawing depicts what I imagine it to look like.
MANTONS.jpg


Although this gun is by Egg, it shows the inset locks that would be used with this style of breech.
12gage4.jpg


Manton often used Platinum vent liners on his fowlers.

Alexander John Forsyth LL,D is generally credited with the invention of the Percussion ignition system however his early designs for achieving this was not the currently used Percussion cap.

There are many candidates for taking credit for the final answer of the simple cap and according to W.W, Greener in his book THE GUN AND ITS DEVELOPMENT Joshua Shaw of Philadelphia, Pa. who used a steel cap in 1814, a pewter cap in 1815 and a copper cap in 1816.
At roughly the same time, J. Manton was building percussion fowlers that were using his Patent “tube” form of a percussion cap. A Colonel Peter Hawker wrote that he had J. Manton make a “perforated nipple and the detonating powder in the crown of a small cap...”
According to this writing “Thus Joe (Manton) who led the fashion for all the world, sent out a few copper-cap guns and I know with some degree of reluctance. The trade, finding he had then deviated from his own patent (the tube), adopted this plan, and it proved to answer so well that we now see it in general circulation.”
 
Thanks for your explanation. It makes sense because I found no reference diagrams of the breech but the inletted lock was referred to a lot on antique gun sites.

I also found lots of beautiful Manton percussion sporting rifles. Also the Manton name survived as a high end gun shop well into the cartridge era. To avoid confusion I'll stick with the Joseph Manton lineage.

One of my dream guns is a double stalking rifle in .303 British. I'm just not willing to mortgage my family to get one!
 
It is easier to make a DB Breechloading rifle as an O/U, than as a S/S. Think about it. :thumbsup:

In fact, liners can be made to fit the barrels of good quality O/U breech loading shotguns, at a reasonable cost, so that you can have that DB .303 rifle without mortgaging the house. An O/U 20 gauge frame, made of modern steel, should be strong enough to take the relatively mild chamber pressures of that cartridge. It should also balance well if the barrels are Not TOO long. ( Frankly, the .308 cartridge would be a better choice, but I understand your affection for the .303 cartridge.) Work will be needed to extend the extractors, but its been done, for both rimmed, and rimless casings. :wink:
 
Canuck Bob said:
One of my dream guns is a double stalking rifle in .303 British. I'm just not willing to mortgage my family to get one!

Me too :hatsoff: "Great minds think alike" I always though 7x57R would be nice too. And I disagree with Paul--the .308 isn't for double rifles. Ya need something from before The Great War and with a rim :wink:
 
I like rimmed cartridges for double rifles, too. But there are Rimmed versions of the .308 available, if you insist on a rimmed cartridge.

My main point in writing was to give the poster some direction to go to fulfill his dream. The .303 is a very popular cartridge in Canada, mainly because of all the British Enfield Rifles from WWII that made it back to Canada from the wars, and home grown rifles that were sold as surplus when Canada joined Nato in upgrading its battle rifle in the mid 1950s.
 
Canuck Bob said:
Does anyone have a diagram of Manton's patented breech? I've searched here and on Google to no avail.

Manton's breech was a recessed variation on Nock's breech to get around Nock's patent which Baker claimed to have given Nock as a freebie :grin:

It gets around a shotgun pressure issue, you won't find them on rifles... probably :wink:
 
Folks: Just as a unsubtle reminder, this is a MUZZLELOADING WEB SITE.

We don't discuss those steenkin cartridge guns here. :nono:
 
Zonie said:
Folks: Just as a unsubtle reminder, this is a MUZZLELOADING WEB SITE.

We don't discuss those steenkin cartridge guns here. :nono:

Sorry Zonie, got carried away looking at 4 bore African percussion guns and made the leap!
 
Original Manton.

P1010957.jpg


Recessed breech Manton rifle lock made from The Rifle Shoppe castings and a shop made recessed breech with a Nock patent internals.
The lock is nearly identical to those on the original shotgun in the Cody Museum.

16borelock2.jpg
16borelock.jpg


This site has Joseph Manton pistol photos
http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/7137819
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Canuck Bob said:
.... era of rifles I'm trying to study, the latest flintlock English sporting rifle.

See if you can find a copy of "English Guns & Rifles" by J.N. George. (Stackpole, 1947). This illustrates the breeches you are studying and discusses their evolution and merits.

David
 
Could you please add a picture of the full length gun if possible. Is that a double rifle or shotgun? It is a very nice gun.

Thanks for the reference David.
 
Canuck Bob said:
Could you please add a picture of the full length gun if possible. Is that a double rifle or shotgun? It is a very nice gun.

Thanks for the reference David.

The double is a shotgun and I only took pics of the locks/breeches.
Mantondoublebreech.jpg

The only place to get the correct locks is from Blackley's in England or The Rifle Shoppe.
Nothing readily available is really correct.

This is the Rifle Shoppe Manton Rifle lock.
Mantonplate.jpg

Dan
 
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