Hooked breech = Less accuracy ??

[Skychief]

A friend claims that hooked breech rifles are inherently less accurate than other breech/tang arrangements. I wanted to build a hooked breech rifle (think T/C Hawken, Seneca styled design). Now, I am not as sure as accuracy means a lot to me.

So, are the hooked breeched rifles usually less accurate than rifles built with more conventional breech/tang designs?

 

[roundball]

A friend claims that hooked breech rifles are inherently less accurate than other breech/tang arrangements. I wanted to build a hooked breech rifle (think T/C Hawken, Seneca styled design). Now, I am not as sure as accuracy means a lot to me.

So, are the hooked breeched rifles usually less accurate than rifles built with more conventional breech/tang designs?

Personal Opinion.

I've never seen any scientific test results supporting that.
I think the occasional individual will get the idea that "uhmmm, if I remove the barrel, then reinstall it, it might be sitting an eyelash off from the previous position, therefore it would be inaccurate".

The problem with that thinking is that both sights are on the barrel where they always remain in alignment no matter how many times the barrel is removed and reinstalled.
Its the same principle as Remington's successful cantilever rifled shotgun deer barrels...the scope mount is on the barrel, not on the receiver, so no matter how many times the barrel is removed from the receiver for cleaning the bore & scope relationship never changes.

 

[Skychief]

Thanks Roundball.......(x2) :wink:

 

[Leon/Iowa]

I have both hook breech and tang mounted rifles and can't tell a difference in accuracy between them. They all shoot very accurate, for me. Leon

 

[necchi]

A friend claims that hooked breech rifles are inherently less accurate than other breech/tang arrangements.

Print this for your friend..

"Your a fruitcake! :yakyak: " I have a hooked breech rifle that'll shoot better than you can,, all day long! :blah: :blah: "

If he don't believe that,,you send him up to Minnesota this weekend and I'll show him first hand,,or should I say "off hand" :wink: :grin:

 

[cowpoke1955]

Roundball is right on the money. Don't forget to match your barrel twist to your projectile. Slow twist for balls and fast twist for conicals. For a "Hawkens" style kit, the Lyman GPR are very accurate with round balls in their 1 in 60" twist barrels. Just something to think about :thumbsup:

 

[broadarrow]

Hi Skychief, a lot of sporting model long range muzzle loaders were made with a hooked breech arrangement and if there were any accuracy issues I am sure the makers of those rifles would not have persisted using them when building, Regards, Peter B.

 

[Mad Professor]

You need to do a search on this . It has been discussed in detail many times before.

A lot will depend on how well the hook/breech fits up as well as the stock and the staples/wedges.

Previous posts have mentioned the use of set screws to lock things in place about the tang. Again, do a search.

P.S. I have a "tack driver" that wouldn't shoot because the under rib was loose..........

 

[Walks with fire]

I have some TC rifles that were loose in the stock area; for example, they would move side to side in the barrel channel. They moved just a little but they did move. I glass bedded the tang and barrel channels and re-sighted. Now it doesn't move and yes it improved accuracy a great deal.

They shoot ok without it but if your looking to squeeze that last little bit of accuracy from your rifle it will help. I am not sure that glass bedded rifles are legal for competition traditional shooting though.

If you decide to glass bed a TC hooked breech glass bed the tang and barrel at the same time by temporarily glueing the tang to the barrel. There is a small slotted hole behind the tang that needs to be filled with putty before you do the bedding or it will get down into the lock screw hole. If you have slop in your barrel channel I suggest you do it. The barrel will now return to the exact same position every time and will lock up tighter than a bank vault.

 

[musketman]

The only differance I have found between a pinned barrel and a hooked breech sysyem is that the hooked breech rifles are easier to clean, the barrel can be removed for easier cleaning.

There is less chance of soaking the forearm wood with cleaning water if the barrel is off the stock.

 

[paulab]

Skychief....Broadarrow speaks the truth! The Pedersoli Gibbs long range rifle has a hooked breech. It is a copy of a George Gibbs 1860's English target rifle. It is probable the most common rifle seen at mid and long range m/l events. The English gun makers made the most accurate l.r. muzzleloaders the world has ever seen. If it was good enough for them, it's good enough for me!

 

[dodgecummins01]

What Walks with fire said!!! :thumbsup:

 

[squirejohn]

A peep sight for a TC Hawken is mounted on the tang and not on the barrel thus increasing the potential for less accuracy.

 

[MikeChapin]

I can see no difference. I have three rifles with hooked breeches and I shoot them as well as the solid breeched rifles.

I shoot a lot of competition so accuracy is very important to me. I have a .58 Hawken flinter with a hooked breech and I shoot it as well as I do my Tennessee with a solid breech. The rifle I use for most percussion competition and all longer range shooting is a hooked breech Santa Fe .53.

I think your friend is overthinking a situation that has no practical real world value.

 

[torn moc]

No Less accuracy at all. I LOVE the hooked breach rifles....sadly they ALL arent made that way!
Pins are a pain...but can be dealt with by leaving them alone ......

 

[paulvallandigham]

A sloppy fit between barrel and stock is going to give any gun problems with consistent accuracy, because of movement during recoil.

There is NO earthy reason why a hooked breech rifle would be less accurate than a fixed breech gun. It all has to do with the bedding of the Tang and barrel.

There is a lot of good advice offered by members here in response to this question. I hope the poster shares this with his " friend", who is obviously operating on something he " heard", rather than on any real knowledge.

Personally, I have handled Hook Breech rifles that were so tightly bedded that they barrel came out like the door on a bank vault. I also have handled similar guns that rattled( barrel hangers against their keys, and hook against tang) when they were carried to the range, because they were so loose in the barrel mortise. The really nice part of being MLers, is that these latter guns were "fixed" by having a knowledgeable club member re-bed the barrel and tang to the stock to tighten things up. A New member who joined shortly after I began representing the club was a BP gunsmith and gunmaker, and he resurrected several guns for members. The Guns had been setting in closets, banished because they were so inaccurate. Once members learned that there was someone in the club that could and would help them, he got plenty of work.

There are also plenty of ways to mess up the accuracy potential of a fixed breech rifle.

 

[Billnpatti]

There are only two ways that I can think of where a hooked breach gun would be less accurate than a regular fixed breach.

A. If the owner is using a tang mounted rear sight. It is separate from the barrel and removing and replacing the barrel could change the POI.

B. The owner is not careful with his sights when he removes his barrel for cleaning. If he bangs them around, he can change the POI.

Other than these two possibilities, I can think of no reason why a hooked breach gun would be less accurate than a regular fixed breach gun. I have several of both and I have no problems with accuracy. Well, none that I can attribute to the gun. I may not be able to hit a bull in the butt but that is my fault not the gun's.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

In some, but not all hooked breech guns there is an internal configuration that slightly slows the process of the powder burning. For instance a TC hooked breech percussion gun. The flash channel is about a 3/16 hole drilled from under the nipple to the center of the breech plug. The breech plug is hollow and has threads that extend into the barrel. This hollow part with in the threads is about an inch deep and about 3/8 inch in diameter. (The breech plug is actually about 1.75 inches long. You don't see the threads that extend into the barrel.) As a result you fire the gun, the fire must burn through that flash channel which is only 3/16 inch diamter, unil it reaches the 3/8 inch diameter hollow in the breech plug that is nearly an inch long and then reaches the main charge in the 50/54 caliber barrel. Now that burning through the flash channel and the narrow hollow inside the breech plug, probably adds a miniscule fraction of a second to the time between hammer fall and the ball exiting the muzzle. If you are the type of shooter that moves as he shoots or flinches, that is a small fraction of a second to pull the shot even further than it would be in a flat faced breech plug type barrel. Now if you have perfect follow through after a shot, there will be no difference down range. However, if you move slightly, there will be a slight difference on the target.

So the gun itself is not more or less accurate, it is the very slight difference in ignition time in the hands of a shooter that moves, that makes the difference.

There have been some hooked breech systems that have flat faced interior breech systems. My Brother has some crazy foreign made muzzleloader in which the breech plug is simply a short threaded piece with a hook, no octagon shape. The barrel extends all the way back to the base of the hook.

This mechanical/design difference isn't present in some rifles. For instance an underhammer, and fans of the underhammer claim they have faster ignition than percussion guns with hooked breech or drum and nipple. The fire goes immediately and directly into the main charge.

 

[roundball]

In some, but not all hooked breech guns there is an internal configuration that slightly slows the process of the powder burning.

Actually, what you're describing is called a 'Patent breech' (a similar internal plug configuration is called a 'chambered breech' with the same results).
They were specifically invented back a couple centuries ago, and are designed to make ignition faster.

All T/C and GM barrels for the T/C have patent breeches...(in additon to the hook)...and my personal decision is to always have a patent breech on a barrel...just had two Rice barrels breeched with "straight tang" plugs and the internal Patent Breech configuration machined into them.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

A proper peep sight for a hook breech rifle is mounted on the barrel and extends back over the tang. Mounting peep sights on the tang appears to be a modern thing--the old-timers knew better.