Hammer double barrell combination shotgun rifle muzzleloader

[dawg76]

Help with identification please. Friend has gun, so I dont have pictures.
No manufacture name, muzzleloader ,double hammer , combination shotgun rifle,,,only writing is "fine twist" on barrel" not london fine twist....hand written paperwork says 12 gauge and 52 caliber, not sure if its correct.. end of barrel looks more like 20 or 16.

not much to go on.
thank you

 

[TFoley]

Help with identification please. Friend has gun, so I dont have pictures.
No manufacture name, muzzleloader ,double hammer , combination shotgun rifle,,,only writing is "fine twist" on barrel" not london fine twist....hand written paperwork says 12 gauge and 52 caliber, not sure if its correct.. end of barrel looks more like 20 or 16.

not much to go on.
thank you

Yup, you were right about that, Sir. Having no name makes identification of the maker, uh, tricky. Since you have no photos, we can't see any proofs - usually on or near the breech. Is it flint or percussion?

Without images all we are doing right now is using up valuable electrons.

 

[dawg76]

Yup, you were right about that, Sir. Having no name makes identification of the maker, uh, tricky. Since you have no photos, we can't see any proofs - usually on or near the breech. Is it flint or percussion?

Without images all we are doing right now is using up valuable electrons.

it is percussion,,,,there are no proofs near the breech,,,you have valuable electrons?? haaahah

 

[TFoley]

In view of the marked lack of any details, apart from the very basic ones, I think it's fair to say that this firearm was made for the European market, particularly Germany/Austria/France/Belgium, where there is a long history of combination guns like this. I'll stick my neck out and say, even without images, that it has a back-action lock, was made in Belgium like a hundred thousand others like it around 1840-50, for sale in hardware stores throughout mainland Europe. Combination guns are not common in England, and very rare in North America, hence my comments.

I suspect that the OP is not in USA, as he or she has not posted any details - or even introduced themselves...

 

[dawg76]

Thank you for your time and unsarcastic response. Your info is appreciated. This is my first post so thank you. Don't know what is meant by "OP not in the USA". What's OP. And I'm definitely in the USA. God bless America and friendly people.

 

[TFoley]

Right, I give as good as I get, and I could tell that you very familiar with this kind of gun. OP is you - the Original Poster, and I thought that perhaps you were not in the USA [I'm not] because of your syntax and use of the English language structure - no real use of the positive article, for instance. As a polygIot I tend to pick up on that very quickly, so forgive me if I am wrong.

 

[Rudyard]

Might be a Cape gun do'es need a picture.
Rudyard .

 

[TFoley]

I forebore [see what I did there? ] to mention Cape gun, since that was a very particular English type of thing, but yes, it has the characteristics of such a gun. A cape gun is a side-by-side version of a combination gun, and is typically European in origin. These were at one time popular in southern Africa where a wide variety of game could be encountered. British versions are commonly chambered for the .303 British service cartridge and a 12-gauge smoothbore barrel, with the rifled barrel positioned on the left. German and Austrian cape guns have the rifled barrel on the right side, which is fired by the front trigger. The front trigger is usually a set trigger as well. However, these are AHEM-style guns, and are not to be mentioned here - a muzzleloading Cape gun is way outside my area of knowledge - in all these sixty-eight years of shooting, I have never seen such an arm.*

A similar smooth/rifled mix could also be seen in the British 'Paradox' configuration, that had/has a smooth-bore 12 gauge and a rifled 12 gauge in SxS. The 12g smoothie was for shot, and the 12g rifled was for a ball - needless to say, both were/are c*r*r*d*e guns... H&H currently make rather a nice one, with a three-year waiting list, starting at $175,000 plus taxes, but after that it can get really expensive.

*I ought to mention at this point, in case you get the idea that I'm older than Noah, that I started shooting at age six.

 

[dawg76]

I forebore [see what I did there? ] to mention Cape gun, since that was a very particular English type of thing, but yes, it has the characteristics of such a gun. A cape gun is a side-by-side version of a combination gun, and is typically European in origin. These were at one time popular in southern Africa where a wide variety of game could be encountered. British versions are commonly chambered for the .303 British service cartridge and a 12-gauge smoothbore barrel, with the rifled barrel positioned on the left. German and Austrian cape guns have the rifled barrel on the right side, which is fired by the front trigger. The front trigger is usually a set trigger as well. However, these are AHEM-style guns, and are not to be mentioned here - a muzzleloading Cape gun is way outside my area of knowledge - in all these sixty-eight years of shooting, I have never seen such an arm.*

A similar smooth/rifled mix could also be seen in the British 'Paradox' configuration, that had/has a smooth-bore 12 gauge and a rifled 12 gauge in SxS. The 12g smoothie was for shot, and the 12g rifled was for a ball - needless to say, both were/are c*r*r*d*e guns... H&H currently make rather a nice one, with a three-year waiting list, starting at $175,000 plus taxes, but after that it can get really expensive.

*I ought to mention at this point, in case you get the idea that I'm older than Noah, that I started shooting at age six.

Rifle is on the right... you're really helping!! Thanks. My English is fine I just choose to be brief and to the point

 

[TFoley]

You can be as windy as you like here, I am, for sure, and so are a few others, for whom I retain the greatest respect, I might add [phew].

Here are a few other configurations, common in Europe, but not in either UK or North America, although a US manufacturer did make an over and under centre-fire and .22 survival rifle - like the top right-hand diagram - you are looking AT the muzzle here, BTW.

 

[dawg76]

Looks like they were expecting trouble

 

[ugly old guy]

no markings, and not .50 or .58 on the rifle side (they made both) murders my first thought on who could be responsible for it.

 

[dawg76]

no markings, and not .50 or .58 on the rifle side (they made both) murders my first thought on who could be responsible for it.

Thanks for responding

 

[Carbon 6]

What's OP.

Short for "original post" or "original poster" etc. Refers back to the original posting and the person who made it.

 

[TFoley]

Short for "original post" or "original poster" etc. Refers back to the original posting and the person who made it.

Post #6 refers - Quote - 'OP is you - the Original Poster...'

 

[user 48679]

Welcome to the board, dawg76 ! !

Cape Guns are distinctively European in origin, and the favorite shotgun chambering was 16ga.

If you can dismount the major metal parts from the stock, there might be further markings to investigate.

The usual suspect places are the underside of the barrels and inside the lockplates.

 

[dawg76]

Welcome to the board, dawg76 ! !

Cape Guns are distinctively European in origin, and the favorite shotgun chambering was 16ga.

If you can dismount the major metal parts from the stock, there might be further markings to investigate.

The usual suspect places are the underside of the barrels and inside the lockplates.

thank you,,i offered to do this but my buddy says he's going to.. we'll see. he moves slow. I would love tofind any marking!!

 

[F.G. Ford]

With one of these guns, you would have little need for others..............that does NOT work here in this forum.
Here we need two or three for each day of the week.
Seriously, with one of these combination guns or cape guns you only needed one gun to go out hunting.
A 12 gauge ( or 20 gauge ) and a .50 or .58 on the other barrel you were armed for squirrel or bear. What more would you want?
I have one in 12 gauge and .44 but sadly there are of the unmentionable type.
I believe Pedersoli made one in 12 gauge and .50 cal. ( muzzle loader of course ). These are hard to find.
They mostly made double rifles and double shotguns. Excellent guns, to say the least.
Years ago, I had a Pedersoli double .58, and thought I had the very best in the muzzle loading world. Yes you're right I foolishly traded it away, and have regretted ever since.
If the gun is in good condition, bring your Kodak and get some good pictures, send them here, for good advice. Then stay on top of the gun, phone him at night ( 3:00 am ) eventually he will wear down.
Many of these guns were worked hard and put away wet.......resulting in heavy and bad wear, so you have to be quite diligent before you put your money down.
All the best & Merry Christmas.
Fred

 

[OLUT]

I've been following this thread for a while and waiting for photos.

As Pietro indicated, proofmarks on the bottom of the barrels of this percussion gun will show whether it is European manufacture. Note that MANY of this type gun were made in the US, especially in New York State such as this one:

 

[Cap'n Ball]

My wife loves hers. It has no makers mark but does have Belgian proof marks on the bottom of the Damascus barrels. The right is 45 fired by the front trigger (not set) and the left muzzle measures 13 gauge although it could be 12 with some choke. Virtually no ornamentation except athe patch box cover which I suspect to be a modern addition. The previous owner did use it for hunting. Hope this is of some use.