Gonzales flag cannon

[Sean Gadhar]

I was reading a bit about Fort Morris Ga. which lead me to a bit about the Battle of Gonzales, and thus to a Wikipedia photo of "The Gonzales Flag"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Come_and_take_it

and the caption for a photo of the flag (near the bottom right)says " The replica at the Texas State Capitol, showing spiked touch-hole detail"

"spiked touch-hole detail" that got me here.

I think they are showing the Trunnion and confused it for a spiked touch-hole. "Come & get it!" would seem pointless if you spiked your one gun before you flew the flag. But then all I know about cannon I got from Errol Flynn movies So I'm looking to you all to tell me I'm right :grin: or not

 

[MSW]

well, I will the second to confess ignorance (my kids will tell you first how dumb I really am), but I did not see a spiked touch hole ... this sounds as though a nitwit (for that, read politician - make rude spit-on-the-floor gesture) decided that this was what it really meant, because they had a consensus, and everyone knows that that means you're right...
:wink:

anyway, I don't see a spiked touch hole ... perhaps i'm looking in the wrong place?

having said that, i'm coming down on your side:

they're wrong, we're right ... now we have a consensus of our own

:grin:

 

[satx78247]

Both of you may want to check out: www.tamu.edu/faculty/ccbn/dewitt/gonzalescannon.htm

The REAL "little cannon that could" from the 1835 skirmish from Gonzales has a total of THREE touch-holes, all of which have been "repaired". - One of those was also "rebored".
(I was once privileged to help fire it in Sulphur Springs, TX & on TX independence Day, as a member of the TWTA. - I was ill with the flu when it was fired on March 6, 1986.)

yours, satx

 

[MSW]

wow- cool post ... thanks!

 

[Sean Gadhar]

Well THATS clear as mud

 

[satx78247]

HOW TRUE!!! - I did my 1st thesis on our "little revolution". = I can tell you from experience/many hours of reading/research that NOTHING is "clear" about it, except that the overall plan "more or less" worked, as our revolution succeeded even beyond GEN Houston's wildest dreams.
(Mostly due to the fact that by San Jacinto Day, 1836 that more than HALF of the enemy forces were too starved/cold/exhausted/sick with "filth diseases" to do anything but die.- Had another month gone by, "The Great Killing" might not have happened, as there would have been few live Mexican soldiers!)

I honor the memory of our brave (and mostly amateur) soldiers of The Texas Revolution.

just my opinion, satx

 

[Sean Gadhar]

"Come and take it" between that flag and Ted Cruz I feel a little disheartened I'm not a Texan.

If y'all would turn the heat down, this Mountain Boy would think hard on transplanting :grin:

 

[satx78247]

Personal to Sean:

To quote my grandfather: "Never ask a man if he is Texican. If he is he'll tell you. If he's not, there's no point in shaming him."

Texas awaits your arrival! ===> All that you have to do is paint "G.T.T." on your door & "git".

yours, satx

 

[Wes/Tex]

And when you get here...yes, the Alamo really is that small! :haha:

 

[crockett]

Why were the enemy forces cold, staved and sick? Weren't the Texans subject to the same temperatures, etc? I thought most of Houston's men were sick, never heard about the Mexican forces.
And, I'll pay a complement to the Mexican Forces. I think they were a lot better soldiers than maybe the Texans gave them credit. Grabbing Santa Anna and forcing him to call it quits saved the day.
I think... I'm just learning and asking

 

[satx78247]

EXCELLENT QUESTION.
The "relatively" short answer is the Winter of 1835-36 was THE WORST on record (It snowed in MEXICO CITY that Winter.) and:

1. The Mexican soldiers were BRAVE but POORLY officered, uniformed & equipped.
(Based on numerous records & memoirs of Mexican officers, I've come to the conclusion that few or no armies were ever as "ill led" & had as many officers, who seemed totally unconcerned about the welfare of their men.)
2. Few "common soldiers" had access to tentage or blankets.
3. Few Mexicans had warm coats, boots, dry socks and many were barefooted.
4. There was a total of three (3) physicians for the entire army & NO trained corpsmen or nurses.
5. The Mexican forces had little understanding of field sanitation and therefore suffered from "filth diseases", including "bilious fever", typhus, smallpox, infected wounds, "camp fevers", typhoid, "cold injuries" and trench-foot.
6. There was little food or clean water available for most of "The Unending March to Bexar".
7. The farther from Mexico that the army moved, the longer the supply lines & malnutrition became increasingly commonplace.
8. The Comanches & Apaches PREYED UPON the army & constantly harassed them, such that many soldiers were denied sufficient sleep for weeks.
AND
8. On the pursuit of GEN Houston's forces, the Mexicans discovered that there was little or no game to kill, that the Texicans had "practiced Scorched Earth" (burning homes, barns & other possible shelter) & had even befouled any springs & wells, as they withdrew toward San Jacinto.

In the final analysis, BRAVERY on the part of the Mexican Army was not enough to overcome the cold/wet weather, poor food supplies, injuries & diseases that they suffered on the way to San Jacinto. - The Mexican Army was sick/malnourished/exhausted and "beaten down" and I suspect that in another month or six weeks that there would have been NO "Great Killing" after "The Miracle at San Jacinto", as there would have been FEW Mexicans still alive.

yours, satx

 

[crockett]

Thanks- I had it backwards. I thought the Texans were making all kinds of mistakes, didn't abandon the Alamo when ordered, didn't leave Goliad in time, Houston off visiting Indians instead of training the army, etc. I thought the Mexican generals were supposed to have done a good job and that if Santa Anna hadn't been caught the Mexicans would have won. Sounds like the Mexicans would have lost even without San Jacinto, like I said, I'm just starting to read about it.

 

[satx78247]

To ALL,

While I was looking for some further information about "The Gonzales Cannon" and found the following information, which bears on the opinions of (at least some of) The Mexican Army's officers toward their troops, in an excerpt of a letter (In the collections of The Autonomous University of Guadalajara) from 1LT Francisco D. Torres de Garza to his father, quoting the words of a French "ex-patriot officer" (GEN Santa Ana had hired some "experienced foreign officers" and other mercenaries for CS & CSS roles.), who was serving as a CPT of Heavy Artillery:
"------ I do not know what I have ever done in my whole life to deserve having to associate with the swine that are in our ranks. The sergeants are insolent, stupid, ignorant, untutored, slovenly of dress, filthy of personal habits, lazy and listless. The other ranks are even worse, as they smell so bad that I must (when I must speak to them at all), I hold a perfumed handkerchief at my nose, so that I do not become nauseated. -------"

Unfortunately, the comments of that French ex-patriot "officer" are evidently all too typical of the opinions of "the privileged leadership" of The Mexican Army toward "the common soldiers".
One wonders why the soldiers did not mutiny against "their betters", even before the Army entered Texas, as the "leaders" so obviously cared NOTHING for their troops health, welfare and even their most basic of needs, such as clean water, sufficient/nutritious food, warm clothing, blankets, tentage, footwear and even basic medical care.
(You can only starve, abuse and whip a house-pet, much less an army, for so long before it turns and bites/scratches you.)

Note 1: Later in his long letter, 1LT Torres de Garza says, "Each sunrise, less and less soldiers are able to rise from the muddy ground and trudge onward. I wonder how long it will be until none of them are able to continue toward the coming battle."
(I am humbled by the "grit" of "the common Mexican soldier" that he endured and went on to fight the enemies of his country, in spite of unbelievable hardship. Further, I wonder how many 21st century men of any army would continue to "try to win" in the face of such odds/privation???)

Note 2: On March 6, 2013, several descendants (I would guess 25-50 people.) of the Mexican troops, who fought/died at The Alamo, participated in The Sunrise Memorial Ceremony at our Alamo Shrine, for the first time. The Mexican families were WARMLY WELCOMED by the Texans and several Texican militiamen were heard to say things like" "It's about time" and "I hope that they come back next year", etc.

yours, satx

 

[satx78247]

Actually, your second sentence is quite CORRECT. - As I said in another post/thread, the Texican Army was a collection of amateurs, who were also poorly organized, equipped and made MANY tactical/strategic errors. - Otoh, they were NOT "as bad off" as the soldiers of Mexico demonstrably were and GEN Houston knew how to exploit the fatal weaknesses of his adversaries.

KEEP READING.======> The history of "our little revolution" against the dictator is fascinating to research and study in depth.

Addenda: TWO things assured the eventual Texican Army's victory at San Jacinto:
1. GEN Santa Ana was so SELF-possessed & insufferably arrogant that he divided his army into at least 3 groups, despite the poor condition of his forces.
and
2. Santa Anna grossly under-estimated GEN Houston.

yours, satx

 

[satx78247]

To ALL,

Just this afternoon, I've been told that there was another "Continuous & Critical Danger" to the Mexican forces on the way from Bexar & Goliad to San Jacinto, from the tribal files of The Tsalagi Nvdagi Nation of Texas, Inc.: Small groups of AmerIndian traditional warriors (NOT just Tsalagis) "in raiding parties" and as individual warriors "shadowed" and "informed upon" the Mexican Army's actions to GEN Houston's forces.
(Until today, 10/15/13, I had thought that the Woodland nation's "contribution to" the TX Revolution was limited to "Guarding the fords on the Sabine River and "prepare to fall on the rear of the enemy, if my (GEN Houston's) plans fail.")
AND
Fired many "poisoned cane darts" (In both war & peace, Woodland warriors used poisoned darts from blowguns for eons. - A blowgun, with darts poisoned with snake venom and/or smeared with human feces, is DEADLY out to about 50M.) and arrows at outriders, scouting parties, "stragglers" & at "other troops, who became separated from the main body".
The warriors also slipped into the Mexican camps at night "to silently attack sleeping soldiers with knife, tomahawk and war club".
(I seriously doubt that it was "easy" to find soldiers to "go out on recon missions", man OP/LP and/or that anyone among the Mexican forces "slept soundly", knowing that you might "never awaken again".)

Note: In the 20th & 21st centuries, many a German, Italian, Japanese, Korean, Chinese, Vietnamese, Serbian, Iraqi or Afghan soldier learned to "fear the coming of darkness and the silent knife, axe or war club, in the hand of a Native warrior". = "Our lads" haven't "lost a step" since "the olden days", when it comes to stealth and "hit and run warfare".

yours, satx

 

[Wes/Tex]

satx is absolutely right...keep reading, the great "Revolution" is truly a comedy of errors...and for both sides. Egos and miscalculations are rife through out the whole affair. The Mexican 'soldado' lead a miserable existence throughout the entire operation. The regiment from the Yucatan were so short and light in weight, they could barely shoulder their muskets and tended to fire from the hip. The cavalry, when confronted by the steam boat "Yellowstone" on the Brazos River, resorted to trying to lasso the smoke stacks to stop it...needless to say it was a failure. As mentioned above, the "Santanistas", as they were referred to in many original accounts, were quite a cosmopolitan group. Of Santa Anna's own attack wing, only the First Division was commanded by Mexican officers. His Headquarters had a French Major General and an Austrian Quartermaster General. His Second Division was lead by General Filisola, an Italian, and the First Brigade by General Gaona, a Cuban. Even the Artillery Brigade had a Lt. Colonel (Commanding) who was of Cuban/Spanish heritage. This ignores the whole officer and NCO corps that was full of ex-Napoleonic War vets and mercenaries from many of the European nations. There were even American citizens who had changed over, for whatever reason.

I would suggest a couple of easier to find volumes if you'd like a few to get a better all-over feel of what went on.

"The Day of San Jacinto" by Frank X. Tolbert (an older volume but highly interesting)

"Texian Iliad: A Military History of the Texas Revolution" by Stephen L. Hardin (deals mostly with the events at the Alamo & San Jacinto)

"The Magnificent Barbarians: Little Told Tales of the Texas Revolution" by Bill & Marjorie K. Walraven (entertaining snippets from the period with short accounts of places, persons & events)

Other early accounts include "RIP Ford's Texas", Noah Smithwick's "Evolution of a State" & John Holmes Jenkins "Recollections of Early Texas". These are more truly personal accounts, but cover many situations not mentioned by more overall tomes.

Didn't mean to hi-jack the thread, but felt these would make an interesting way to learn some of the twists and turns of Texas history.

 

[satx78247]

EXACTLY SO.

yours, satx

 

[crockett]

Yeah, it is all pretty interesting stuff and I must admit my "education" up until now was essentially whatever Hollywood portrayed in movies. As I study this I am starting to believe the Texans simply had a bit of good fortune in the final victory. That doesn't mean the guys that charged across the plains at San Jacinto were not tough and brave- they were- but they would have been hopelessly outnumbered if the Mexicans had not split up into groups.
The other pretty interesting thing is that I have looked at some bibliographies and it appears there are a fair number of books written by the Mexican officers that were in the fight.

 

[satx78247]

Correct.

My much beloved/adopted daughter was born & educated in parochial schools until high school in Mexico (She came to us as a teenager, more than 2 decades ago.) and has become very interested in our TX Revolution from the Mexican viewpoint. - I would guess that there must be nearly as many such books in Spanish on the subject, as there are in English though few of those books are translated to English.
(Pena's book is one of the few and that one is read here because it was re-published in English by TAMU Press.)

Many of those books concern the hardships & privations suffered by the Mexican forces on the way to San Jacinto and on the march back "home", as well as numerous other military incidents between Mexico & the RoT between 1836-45.
(Interestingly, few of those "armed incursions" are well-known in Texas.- That era is simply not taught in our schools.)

I also find that Santa Ana is seen in almost the same way in Mexico, as he is in Texas. = As a cruel dictator, who overthrew the legitimate government of Mexico and installed himself as "El Supremo".

yours, satx

 

[Wes/Tex]

Yeah, it is all pretty interesting stuff and I must admit my "education" up until now was essentially whatever Hollywood portrayed in movies. As I study this I am starting to believe the Texans simply had a bit of good fortune in the final victory.

As you read more, you'll find that San Jacinto wasn't the end, really. Lady Luck, good fortune and great timing did play a big part. Both sides had humped it from Bexar (San Antonio) over several weeks and they'd fought a fair skirmish the day before. Gen. Cos, Santa Anna's brother-in-law, came dragging in that morning with reinforcements but they were pretty worn out and everybody hit the rack, figuring they'd deal with it next day. How much fatigue lead to the Texians being able to approach before being discovered is anybody's guess. Both sides were tired and worn down, but revenge can boost the fatigued into action. What followed was 18 minutes of 'battle' and a couple hours of 'killing'. One of the books I listed, "The Day of San Jacinto", goes into much detail of the slaughter that occurred that evening...and the charges that it created.