Getting the Walker tuned up

[45D]

They may be too hard for loading on the gun. I'd probably try r.b. first.

Mike

 

[M. De Land]

Maybe use an arbor/loading press with cylinder out of the gun. Typically what I did when I was shooting SASS. Ultimately the press concept carried over to my everyday percussion revolver shooting. If you go this route you will discover how silly and impractical your short arbor ‘gauge’ concept just may be.

If you want to load conicals without taking the cylinder off the gun, you will likely need to give the barrel a haircut to allow the bullet to fit. Starting to question just how much cap and ball shooting you have done, particularly with conicals. And after 14 or so pages arguing about ‘too much made of short arbors’….

I have never used conicals at all in percussion hand guns but have been competing with round balls for 40 years in monthly and yearly territorial muzzle loading venues with percussion revolvers, single shot, flint and percussion guns. My first was a 58 Remington Lyman in my teens.
I have and use a cylinder press I made but it may not work on this Walker length cylinder hence the inquire of Walker loading of conical bullets. The press is very rigid and works superbly well on all regular length cylinders without an adjustable cylinder centering spud.
You just can't get used to the idea of percussion guns working very well for decades without an end fit arbor can you ! Facts are very stubborn against our pet ideas !
The Walker with it's very heavy loads probably is the exception but the simple truth is the majority of open frame guns in use today and for the last five decades do not have end fit arbors and never will.

 

[M. De Land]

They may be too hard for loading on the gun. I'd probably try r.b. first.

Mike

Good advice me thinks !

 

[M. De Land]

I wonder wither balls or bullets were the most used in Walkers in Texas ranger hands. I have read the Walkers came with a mold as issued so what ever the mold cast would probably provide a pretty good answer.
The testing should be done with both I suppose but would think the bullet used in them would be the better test of wedge strength.
Could be a double cavity mold I suppose casting both balls and bullets. Any one seen an original mold issued with the Walkers?

I saw a Walker mold tonight on a Doc Kestner of Boseman MT. video and it was a 170 grain Picket bullet that was issued with them originally. In his testing the balls out shot the picket bullet, mostly I think because the Picketts were so hard to keep straight at loading.

 

[Dude]

Could be. Reamers typically work the sides, not so much the ends. I took a cast of that hole to get the cone profile and have also noticed the small small flat around the perimeter you mentioned. Ive accidentally created such flats on drilled holes in the past by overdriving the reamer into the hole (I.e. “oops”). Yes, if that flat is big enough then I’d feel ok using a flat shim, and I have a Dragoon like that. On the Walker, though, that ledge is barely there. Seems to vary from part to part.

Getting specific, was the angle 59 degrees?

Mine doesn't have a ledge, but the center of the well is flat about 1/4" round.

 

[Snooterpup]

I was referring to Walker wedges so we'll see on mine, set up with solid end arbor end fit and factory wedge. The originals were apparently fired with full loads routinely and it looks like used a lot of wedges from what the Army was saying. Modern steel should fare much better so we'll see.
This should be interesting to see how well factory wedges hold up under as close as I can make same conditions as original guns.

Uh, the originals had proper arbor to arbor well contact. Short arbors ain’t the same condition as originals. Rich44 nailed it. So has 45D.
To quote Lilly Von Schtuk
“I’m sooo tired”
Snoot goes to sleep now.
ZZZZZZZZ

 

[dickydalton]

I have a Walker I bought from Jackrabbit already set up and a bunch of 2nd gen Colts and an Uberti Whitneyville dragoon that 45D has done for me. They all get full loads of 3 F Swiss and Olde Eynsford all the time.

 

[M. De Land]

Uh, the originals had proper arbor to arbor well contact. Short arbors ain’t the same condition as originals. Rich44 nailed it. So has 45D.
To quote Lilly Von Schtuk
“I’m sooo tired”
Snoot goes to sleep now.
ZZZZZZZZ

Nighty night !

Getting specific, was the angle 59 degrees?

Mine doesn't have a ledge, but the center of the well is flat about 1/4" round.

Any solid steel plug should work fine in the well bottom as long as it's not jammed on the perimeter. Remember the pressure vector is away from each other (arbor end and well bottom) not against. Only the wedge cam pressure is pressing them toward each other. The joint between them remains wither making contact or not.

 

[Dude]

Only the wedge cam pressure is pressing them toward each other. The joint between them remains wither making contact or not.

It's true - operational forces work to separate that joint. However, the whole point of all this is a solid lockup between the barrel and frame. That happens at the arbor's end and the barrel's foot. The wedge is the tool accomplishing this lockup between the barrel and frame. It does help in the lockup, but if the arbor isn't solid, even though the tool (wedge) is tight, it's not locked up.

 

[M. De Land]

It's true - operational forces work to separate that joint. However, the whole point of all this is a solid lockup between the barrel and frame. That happens at the arbor's end and the barrel's foot. The wedge is the tool accomplishing this lockup between the barrel and frame. It does help in the lockup, but if the arbor isn't solid, even though the tool (wedge) is tight, it's not locked up.

Pressing to ends together to form a contact joint locks nothing , we have two separate masses trying to move apart at ignition linked together with the wedge, a separate component. Wither making contact or not the initial pressure impulse is to separate them. If slack in the wedge is produced ,when no arbor end fit is present, from a movement rearward of recoil, from the initial pressure direction, then battering can occurr at the rear of the wedge and at the next firing the slack forward can batter the front of the wedge.
The end fit is negating any rearward movement that produces wedge slack. The slack is allowing the movement that is producing wedge battering not harmonic vibration.

 

[M. De Land]

They may be too hard for loading on the gun. I'd probably try r.b. first.

Mike

I was thinking the thing I ought to do is get the mold out and cast some of pure lead course they will be smaller than .453 from the wheel weights but that may work out well as the chamber mouths are .449. I think that semi wad cutter design with the truncate flat point nose at 200 grains out to be accurate and hit game like a broad axe !
I'll see if my cylinder loading press will fit the long Walker cylinder tomorrow.
If the cylinder press will work I wonder if the gun would safely handle the WW alloy bullets with 3F loads ? Sure would be better alloy for hunting I think.
Talk about a wedge test.

 

[dickydalton]

Colt didn't make this one's wedge fill the hole in the barrel!

 

[Pete453]

M, De Land,
Wheel weights at 12 Brinell may be a bit hard on your loading assembly, but I've been running 8-9 brinell conicals and they seem to be OK. I'm thinking that you'll know by the feel on the loading lever. The problem you'll have more trouble with is getting the base started square. Make sure you hold your mouth right!
I bored an old lubrisizer die out to .448 to size the base band to start easily and square in the cylinder, but haven't had time to try it yet.

 

[M. De Land]

M, De Land,
Wheel weights at 12 Brinell may be a bit hard on your loading assembly, but I've been running 8-9 brinell conicals and they seem to be OK. I'm thinking that you'll know by the feel on the loading lever. The problem you'll have more trouble with is getting the base started square. Make sure you hold your mouth right!
I bored an old lubrisizer die out to .448 to size the base band to start easily and square in the cylinder, but haven't had time to try it yet.

Well fiddle, my cylinder loading press is not long enough to handle the long Walker cylinder.
I'm doing some serious thinking about taking a ball mill to the loading port in the barrel to clear enough for these 45 ACP heeled bullets that shoot so well in the 1911. It will only take a skoash to clear the truncate nose.
The heel on the base of these bullets should greatly aid in getting them started straight in the chamber mouth as they seat like a dream in the ACP cases in my progressive loader.
This bullet should give a really excellent protection against front end chain fire with both the base and front shoulder making a seal and separated by a grease groove full of bullet lube.

 

[Dude]

Colt didn't make this one's wedge fill the hole in the barrel!View attachment 248495

Who knows? Maybe a full width wedge would make things better? Do we assume that Sam Colt came up with the perfect design and the best execution? Seems like in any factory-built item, there's room for improvement. A lot of times things are made to a price point, so quality suffers somewhere. Maybe Sam did get it right (and it seems like the factory wedges were sufficient) but quite often in anything factory made, improvements in design and execution are possible - meaning, the originals may not be the ultimate with room for improvement. Maybe Sam didn't specify full width wedges (though he'd have liked to) because they didn't add enough value for the added cost? Who knows?

 

[Dude]

Well fiddle, my cylinder loading press is not long enough to handle the long Walker cylinder.
I'm doing some serious thinking about taking a ball mill to the loading port in the barrel to clear enough for these 45 ACP heeled bullets that shoot so well in the 1911. It will only take a skoash to clear the truncate nose.
The heel on the base of these bullets should greatly aid in getting them started straight in the chamber mouth as they seat like a dream in the ACP cases in my progressive loader.
This bullet should give a really excellent protection against front end chain fire with both the base and front shoulder making a seal and separated by a grease groove full of bullet lube.

How about sizing the base for a tight fit by hand? That would allow the bullet to pass under the loading lever and finish up there.

 

[William P Sepessy]

M, De Land,
Wheel weights at 12 Brinell may be a bit hard on your loading assembly, but I've been running 8-9 brinell conicals and they seem to be OK. I'm thinking that you'll know by the feel on the loading lever. The problem you'll have more trouble with is getting the base started square. Make sure you hold your mouth right!
I bored an old lubrisizer die out to .448 to size the base band to start easily and square in the cylinder, but haven't had time to try it yet.

You will probably find that .448 sizing die will work pretty good. After measuring a bunch of Uberti 44 cylinders with pin gauges, they are pretty consistent at .449 mouth tapering to a .446. So I double size regular lube groove bullets to those dimensions, turning them into "heel" bullets. I assumed they would be a bit loose upon chambering but that has not been the case. As long as I seat them a little below the chamber mouth they seem nice and tight. I have not done extensive longer range accuracy testing yet, usually about 15 yards as I use this setup for Cowboy shoots, but at that distance accuracy is comparable to my round ball loads in Uberti 1860 Armies, Dragoons and Walkers.

 

[Pete453]

So I double size regular lube groove bullets to those dimensions, turning them into "heel" bullets

That's what I'm thinking of doing, I have a few modern molds that will put a spankin on deer. Lack of time is slowing me down....

 

[M. De Land]

You will probably find that .448 sizing die will work pretty good. After measuring a bunch of Uberti 44 cylinders with pin gauges, they are pretty consistent at .449 mouth tapering to a .446. So I double size regular lube groove bullets to those dimensions, turning them into "heel" bullets. I assumed they would be a bit loose upon chambering but that has not been the case. As long as I seat them a little below the chamber mouth they seem nice and tight. I have not done extensive longer range accuracy testing yet, usually about 15 yards as I use this setup for Cowboy shoots, but at that distance accuracy is comparable to my round ball loads in Uberti 1860 Armies, Dragoons and Walkers.

Good idea I'll try it ! I to noticed the chamber got tighter below the mouths with my .449 pin gauge. I sure prefer not to alter the loading port with a ball mill to get these slugs to work.
I never before had any desire to shoot bullets in percussion guns until this Walker showed up and presented this opportunity to use this ACP bullets I have always loved.
Wonder what the accuracy and velocity potential might be, maybe 1100 fps if this alloy of WW will work in these guns safely with black powder loads.
I don't think the pressure is a problem with BP and the size down should take the strain off the loading lever.
I'm anxious to give the combination a try !

 

[M. De Land]

Good idea I'll try it ! I to noticed the chamber got tighter below the mouths with my .449 pin gauge. I sure prefer not to alter the loading port with a ball mill to get these slugs to work.
I never before had any desire to shoot bullets in percussion guns until this Walker showed up and presented this opportunity to use this ACP bullets I have always loved.
Wonder what the accuracy and velocity potential might be, maybe 1100 fps if this alloy of WW will work in these guns safely with black powder loads.
I don't think the pressure is a problem with BP and the size down should take the strain off the loading lever.
I'm anxious to give the combination a try !

Well I'm in business, I found a size/lube die I made for some other project that takes the bullet base and front band down to .448 and I can push them in the cylinder mouth by hand enough to clear the loading port before they snug up in the chamber past the mouth about 2/3rds there length as in the picture.
Now if they will seal against front end chain fire and not back out from recoil I think It'll be a good match for the gun. The bullet weighs 202 grains dry so should be around 205 grains with the grease groove full.
I do have felt grease wads that will work to help seal things up if the bullet diameter is not tight enough.
I'll be quite surprised if this bullet does not perform well .