Full Metal Pistols

[TobJohn]

I have come across another interesting topic. There are many surviving wheellock pistols that are completely metal, often copying the form of traditional wood stocked pistols.

SKD | Online Collection

Hermann Historica

https://www.invaluable.com/auction-...al-wheellock-pistol-circa-1-2088-c-b544671932

Guns of the "Border Reivers." Post 5. A very good Nuremberg all steel wheellock pistol circa 1585.

Does anyone have any insight in how these were made? I assume that they are hollow, with an iron or steel shell that is forge welded closed? The also seem to have some sort of internal barrel tang:

It is my understanding that very small all metal pistols are the final projects of gunsmith apprentices, and not meant for combat:

 

[64Springer]

Now we know where the .45ACP Liberator Pistols came from.

 

[TobJohn]

Now we know where the .45ACP Liberator Pistols came from.

Engraving aside, even more liberator looking

 

[Sam squanch]

I imagine a hot sheet of iron was hammered over a tapered form, then forge welded shut. The form could be tapped out from the small end. That’s my best guess…..

 

[BillinOregon]

They seem to violate everything we know about ergonomics.

 

[TobJohn]

They seem to violate everything we know about ergonomics.

Ergonomics were probably considered unchristian... or something...

 

[TobJohn]

Some of the funkier wheellocks, particularly multishot and combination weapons, seem to have a high ratio of all metal guns:

Wheellock double-barrelled pistol/carbine - Unknown Over an under barrels - Royal Armouries collections

(I can't remember where I found this one)

https://basedescollections.musee-ar...&queryId=e4b05311-0b63-4320-a4a0-19bc9647cb96

From the Doge's Palace, in Venice. Image source: Ethnographic Arms & Armour - View Single Post - A 1548 Nuremberg Dagger-grip Over-and-Under Double Wheellock Pistol

Speaking of ergonomics, the Royal Armouries have their own example of one of those boomerang shaped pistols, and I just realized that they are actually relatively small. I assume the funky shape is a compromise to compact the action:

Wheellock pistol With Nuremberg Control mark - Royal Armouries collections

 

[Sam squanch]

Maybe the smiths didn’t have very good stock wood. Or the fancy wood was saved for the kings furniture….

 

[PhDBrewer]

I like the idea of apprentices making these tiny ones as a show of mastered skills. These apparently are completely functional!

William

 

[TobJohn]

I like the idea of apprentices making these tiny ones as a show of mastered skills. These apparently are completely functional!
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William

They must be a hoot to (responsibly) play with. A very clever way to show an apprentice has learned the trade.

 

[TobJohn]

The Philadelphia Museum of Art has a metal wheellock pistol, and have some nice close up images.

Wheellock Pistol

The second image has some gaps where the lock plate slots into the top of the grip. The gaps show that the body of the pistol is hollow.

 

[TobJohn]

I was just at the Wallace collection. Great museum! Their arms collection put the size of a bunch of wheellocks in perspective.

I assumed the double barreled pistols were ridiculously large, but they are actually smaller than a lot of the puffer wheellocks. The guns above them in the display are abnormally large, and the one at the bottom is one of those miniature wheellocks.

 

[TobJohn]

After seeing the RA metal wheellock (posted further up) it looks to be a great size for a somewhat concealable self defense gun (it was in the self defense gallery)

 

[Rudyard]

While I can see no brazing on the group of Wheellocks . Scots all steel had the joins brazed after first being held together by short rivets in the grip , & the rams horns .
I cant recall specific brazeing on the all steel' Heart Butts ' but it seems probable they where also brazed A late friend used to make them & I examined pistols at a large museum with the eyes of a gunmaker . They paid me, but Ide have paid them ! to work there .
Rudyard

 

[Rudyard]

Maybe the smiths didn’t have very good stock wood. Or the fancy wood was saved for the kings furniture….

As likley it was a guild thing they seem very fixed on who could make what.
/ Rudyard

 

[TobJohn]

As likley it was a guild thing they seem very fixed on who could make what.
/ Rudyard

That’s a very good point. The society these guns were built in plays a huge role in their design. At first, I thought these guns would be a nightmare to forge, needing 4 hands, but after learning more about guilds and apprentices, that was probably exactly the case, but not an issue. Any major gun maker would have multiple gunsmiths and apprentices, so it would not have been a problem to have multiple people help out with the forging and fitting of a full metal stock.

The huge cavalry pistol in my very first post is actually lighter than the comparable sized Woodstock cavalry pistols in their collection, so if it was no harder to make (given the multi person workshops) there is at least one clear benefit. That could also be why it was a popular design for multi shot/combination weapons. It’s a good way to shave off some weight, to offset the second mechanism.

 

[TobJohn]

After learning more about forging, I was wondering if these would not be as practical to make with mild steel. It is my understanding that wrought iron has a much higher natural corrosion resistance and easier to forge weld, which would be much more convenient for a gun with a metal stock.

 

[Sam squanch]

Wrought iron is easily welded at a lower heat, my old iron gun locks may get a little rust from use, but I just wipe with oil and it comes right off. My modern flintlocks rust and rust if you don’t watch them.

 

[TobJohn]

Wrought iron is easily welded at a lower heat, my old iron gun locks may get a little rust from use, but I just wipe with oil and it comes right off. My modern flintlocks rust and rust if you don’t watch them.

I assume this would also mean a wrought iron pistol stock wouldn’t need to be nearly as greasy as a mild steel one?

 

[Rudyard]

The only all steel pistol I made was an issue pattern Scottish regimental one after two examples in the Glenbow Museum one by Corbett the other By Petcairn with the help of Elmer Johnston of Mattawa Wash not wrought iron though the originals where . A late friend in UK used to make the bigger rams horn pistols & I engraved them we tried to make steel' heart butts' but these prove difficult to make .He was A Collier at Orgeave pit .Mostly I made wood stocked Lemon butts . it seem even the late ramshorns had some wood stocked . .Key message is nothing stops the determined !.

Regards Rudyard