Fouling and accuracy in .45 Kentucky

[Gsyme]

Well, here I am asking for advice again. I hope someday to be able to contribute rather than simply receive. But here goes: I was having consistency problems and tried polishing the bore (100 strokes with green scotch brite) per some suggestions here. It helped but I am still much more accurate if I clean thoroughly after every shot. Example, my last three shots:

1. with a clean bore, 1.5 inch from bull
2. no cleaning after first shot, 8 inches high
3. cleaned the bore thoroughly again 1.5 inch from bull again

60yds

My question: Should I keep polishing? a couple hundred more strokes? Can this hurt anything?

 

[DOUBLEDEUCE 1]

Are you sighting in the rifle ? If so, are you shooting from a bagged rest ?

What type of powder and charge are you using ? I use FFFG in my rifle. For me, it burns cleaner with less residue. I rarely if ever have to wipe the bore after each shot. What type of patch lube do you use ?

 

[Grenadier1758]

More polishing won't hurt, but before you spend a few hours with your Scotch Brite you need to tell us more about your load. @Gsyme, what is the make of your rifle or the maker of your barrel? Its a 45 caliber. What are the depth of the grooves? What is the diameter of the ball? What is the thickness of the patch? What is the patch material? What are you using for patch lubricant? What is the powder charge? What is the granulation? Have you shot a group of 5 shots? Please describe your cleaning procedure. If you are shooting from a rest, where are you resting the rifle? This should either be the entry thimble or just under the nose cap.

It is not uncommon for the first shot to place in a different position in the target than the following group shots.

 

[andy52]

If you're shooting off-hand rather than from a bench there is no way to be certain it's the rifle and not the shooter and I mean no disrespect by that. When I use my 45 SMR at a competition there are normally 3 shots per station and I clean between stations without loss of accuracy.

 

[Flintlock]

Try changing lubes, some will foul much faster than others, ( I use olive oil) Start out with 50 grains or even 40 (your rifle may just hate the charge your using) If having serious trouble have someone more experienced try it. Amazing how many times it's the shooter and not the shooting stick.

 

[renegadehunter]

I'm with the others. Having the point of impact (POI) jump that high after fouling the bore really doesn't necessarily mean you have a bad bore problem.
I'd be more inclined to question the fit of your patch and ball. What do recovered patches look like?

 

[Gsyme]

Thanks much for all the responses. I should have given more background. I am definitely capable of sending a shot 8 inches and more off the mark without any help from a bad bore. Blaming the shooter is always the first thing I do when unhappy with my groups.

That being said, I am shooting off a rest and have done a lot of experimenting with load, lube, ball size, patch size, sighting, rests etc. (based on advice from here several months ago) and have been getting consistent, if not prize winning, groups with a light load of 40 grains.

Now, I am interested in hunting so I recently worked up to a load of 75 grains and have begun to get some halfway decent groups (for a newbie) at this load as well; except for the problem mentioned at top: if I don't clean the barrel well after each shot my groups seem to get worse and it is also really very hard to load, even after just one shot. Forgot to mention that part in the previous post. My omission. Thus the polishing inquiry.

Thanks again for the help and interest!
- G
...
More info:

CVA Kentucky .45
75 grains Goex 3F black powder
.445 ball with a pre-lubed .070 patch - (sorry I can't remember what these are lubed with at present. Store bought patches.)
I clean after shooting with warm water and a little dish soap, in a bucket of water, plunging through the barrel, run patches through till dry and clean then a coating of ballistol.
For cleaning in between shots I spit on a patch and run it through a couple of times.

 

[LME]

I have never had a fouled bore shoot higher than a clean bore?
Something here that I know nothing about? I have shot many B.P. rifles and never seen this happen?

 

[FishDFly]

Sounds like you need to clean between shots, that is what the rifle is telling you.

 

[renegadehunter]

A .070" patch?
Prelubed patches are notorious for giving fliers, as they can sit on the shelf for quite a while and the lube starts to break down the patch fibers.

My .54 TC Renegade is very similar in wanting to be swabbed. I can get two shots before my POA takes off to the left for whatever reason. So I simply run a swab, two passes with a damp patch and one with a dry. I run a very tight fitting PRB combo that is "supposed" to scrape the fouling well when loading the next charge, but my rifle will still lose accuracy if I don't swab.
I do not see my clean bore shot very much lower than my following fouled bore shots though, my clean bore shot is only 2" to 2.5" lower.

 

[Dave Dworshak]

did you try a .440 rb?

 

[Gsyme]

A .070" patch?
Prelubed patches are notorious for giving fliers, as they can sit on the shelf for quite a while and the lube starts to break down the patch fibers...

...but my rifle will still lose accuracy if I don't swab.
I do not see my clean bore shot very much lower than my following fouled bore shots though, my clean bore shot is only 2" to 2.5" lower.

Good points. It is advertised as a .010 patch but I measured it as .070 after I bought some calipers. Maybe I shouldn't trust their lube either if they can't even measure the thickness of their patches accurately.

 

[akroguy]

That sounds like a crazy tight ball/patch combination....must be a bear to load. .440 ball and .015 or .017 pillow ticking patch worked for me in a .45 long rifle I had long ago. Every barrel is different though. Each has it's own "diet" that it prefers. Scotch Brite'ing the bore in my .54 GPR smoothed it out nicely as it had really sharp rifling when new. It was a bear to load when fouled and the patches got cut no matter what material or lube I used.

 

[Big Bubba]

Good points. It is advertised as a .010 patch but I measured it as .070 after I bought some calipers. Maybe I shouldn't trust their lube either if they can't even measure the thickness of their patches accurately.

Make sure your calipers are zeroed prior to checking and squeeze them tight on the patch. When I first started, I tried some .010 patches which were kind of sporadic. After a discussion with guys that new what they are doing, I'm now using .021-.022 heavy canvas patches, .440 ball and 60 grains FFFG and can put three shots touching at 50 yards off a rest, and I don't clean between shots.

 

[Grenadier1758]

Good points. It is advertised as a .010 patch but I measured it as .070 after I bought some calipers. Maybe I shouldn't trust their lube either if they can't even measure the thickness of their patches accurately.

Check where the decimal point is on your calipers. I am interpreting your measurement as 0.007" thick patching. Advertised patching of 0.010" will easily compress when measuring with calipers and even a little bit of pressure is applied to the jaws once contact has been made. Dutch Schoultz and I often disagree about measuring patch material for compressability. He states that I measure patch material using the same contact criteria as a machinist. I contend that any compressability measured while abusing a precision instrument such as a micrometer won't reflect on a patch that has to fit into the 0.005" between the ball and the lands of a rifled barrel. The patch needs to compress and the soft lead ball is deformed slightly by the exertions of loading.

Disclaimer: I have found a micrometer that my father lost for at least 15 years behind a tool bench in his garage that I feel I can abuse for compressability measurements.

 

[Gsyme]

Correction all! Grenadier is right - I meant .007 patch. Put my zero in the wrong place. These are analogue calipers, too. Akroguy - despite this thin patch it is still hard to load after my first shot. Glad to hear the scotch brite helped your loading. I think I will try a few more passes. The crown still feels sharp and there do seem to be a lot of tooling marks from what I can see in the barrel. Bubba: that's encouraging. I'll be pleased as punch to get to that point with my gun. Thank you.

 

[OB One]

I would suggest you get Dutch Shultz's booklet on shooting BP rifles. I used to get consistency when using his method of Ballistol/and water on a patch strip cut off at the muzzle. I can no longer get to the range to shoot with a bunch of the guys.

 

[Grenadier1758]

@Gsyme

Here is the address to Dutch Schoultz's web site to get his accuracy system. There's 94 pages of information that is well worth paying heed to even if Dutch and I disagree on how to measure patch thickness.

Black powder rifle accuracy system -

 

[hanshi]

With calipers use your thumb and forefinger on the jaws to compress the cloth, never stress the mechanism. With sandpaper and your thumb polish the muzzle crown for a smooth prb entry that won't cut the patch. You can experiment with both .440" and .445" ball to find what the rifle prefers. I never swab between shots and never have any change in accuracy from a clean barrel to the 30th plus shot. I shoot tight prb loads which a polished crowns allows; and I use the wood underbarrel rod for loading. My patching material measures about .023" or so and does clean the bore each time a prb is seated.

 

[sdhunter]

If you are trying to develop a load for hunting then swab the barrel after every shot. I’m sure you will be hunting with a clean gun so simulate that at the range. I use rubbing alcohol 91% to swab between shots since that is what I use to clean the oil out of the barrel when I take the muzzleloader out of the gun cabinet to go to the range or hunting. The best groups I have found out of my .54 gpr has been after swabbing the barrel after every shot. Now if I am plinking around at the range I might swab after 10 shots but my groups do open up a bit.