"Flintlock Crack" / Maximum load

[riarcher]

Remembering back in the "Olde Days", folks used to consider a load that made a flintlock "crack" when fired (as opposed to a boom) was considered a way to work up an "optimum load". The "crack' was caused by the bullet traveling the speed of sound (1200 FPS)if memory serves me correctly.
And I believe that was relavent to a rifled flinter. I seem to remember it as being pretty darn close if I'm remembering right.
Does anyone know if it works on a musket that way too?
Thinking the .62's and .69's probably are loading close if not to the "crack" (?).

And anouther question, What is considered Maximum load for a Pedersoli 2nd land Bess? Pedersoli site says nothing about load. Dixie in their cataloge suggest 70 gr. 2Fg (that seems mild?)
For my .715 to do the "crack" I'd have to load 140-160 Gr. 2Fg :shocking: (if figuring right). Sounds a bit "stout" to me
I've got paperwork off the internet from some historian suggesting that the Bess' may have been loaded with up to 220 gr. :cry: by the Brits in an effort to pass through 2 or more men if so situated :hmm:. Sounds possible I guess, but I sure don't want to be the one pulling the trigger (let Mikey do it!).
Geez, I can't imagine all that powder burning while the ball is still in the barrel.
Anyone load to the "crack"?
What's the (realistic) maximum load for the Pedersoli Bess?(please don't say 70 gr 2Fg. :

 

[ffffg]

start with 65 grains ffg and work up in five grain increments until accuraccy decreases.. then work the area that seems to work best with differnt patches, fiber wads and lube, ball sizes etc.. if your going to break the speed of sound before the ball leaves the barrel it still must break the speed of sound when slowing down.. not spinning with rifling and breaking the speed of sound will cause turbulance that will affect a percentage of balls accuracy in my opinion and that is just an opinion.. to some of us its not about raw power but about bullet (ball) placement to do the job.. 70 grains of powder in your bess will wipe out any critter up to a cow in your general area in the range(distance) that you can place the ball properly.. i could go into the effectiveness or importance of the crack in target shooting or hunting, but it doesnt seem to be very relevent to me.... reloading or working up a load is about trial and error of loads starting with the suggested load, and then varying it within certain perameters that books, other reloaders suggest... and double check any loading teckniques that arent standard.. there will be at one point in time a crack pot who things blowing up your gun will be a blast.. so resist breaking new ground with firearms without confirmation from a gunsmith, respected book, or well respected shooter. eace: dave.

 

[big bore 75]

riarcher I'm in agreement with ffffg on this I have accidently loaded my bess with 160 grains of powder new right away that something was not right after I pulled the trigger it was one hellofa recoil and won't try that again as I went through my steps I remembered that one of the guys had a problem with his gun and I helped him ,lesson learned just start with 70 and work up . bb75

 

I used to use this as a rule as well then one winter i noticed all the black specs on the snow and realized they were un burnt powder grains .
the speed of sound is relative to altitude so when you think about it the theory doesn

 

[CrackStock]

riarcher,

While the musket may not give a great report as a singly fired weapon with 65 grains, it is intended to be a part of a line of weapons firing en masse. You must also understand that when a lot of people are discharging at once, there is ample noise, smoke and fire. The big issue is that shooters not become confused and continue to load when their weapon is not actually firing the main charge. While proper training and techniques are the best fix here, a lighter load minimizes risks involved with this situation. This is why companies are suggesting lighter loads.

If you were making these guns, you would do the same.

CS

 

[Rat]

Yes the crack is just a sonic boom when the ball comes out breaking the sound-barrier, which is 1115fps at sea level.

The small calibre guns are capable of much more velocity than that, with the bigger guns such as the Bess, recoil becomes a problem long before velocity in the 1200fps range is attained, and long before there is any safety issue with the charge. That's why you usually won't hear a Bess "crack".

Same with a .69", but the .62's will produce velocities well over 1200fps easy. My .62 rifle "cracks" with only 100 grains of Swiss ffg.

Proof loads for 11 gauge ML shotguns (which is what a Bess is) are way beyond 200 grains, I think more around 300, and some used to load the Bess with around 150 grains during the early days of reproduction muzzle loading without problem. But 100-115 grains of black is a normal, listed powder charge for an 11 gauge, and how they were loaded for hunting back in the day. Military service charges were very light for a number of reasons having nothing to do with the safety of the firearm...indeed in the 70-80 grain zone, although I believe the Bess might have had a service charge, in some services, of 90 grains.

I can tell you that 110 grains is about all you want, with a ball as far as recoil goes, and 100 grains would be a good load on the mild side. I use 110 grains of Swiss ffg in mine. Recoil is heavy, but still reasonable at 110, and it shoots great. Mine groups 3" at 50 yards with that load.

I see no reason to stray too far in the other direction and dip down into the 70 grain service charge range. Sure it will "work" but really 100-110 grains (of ffg, not fffg) is the "zone" for a good hunting load out of any 11 gauge. I mean you dont' want to over load the gun, but why underload for no reason?

Again, for hunting with a ball, 100-110 grains will give you a good powerful load that will not stress the gun. Over 110, IMHO the gains in power are not needed and are certainly not worth the the very heavy recoil that will begin after that point. I would not load a Bess over 120 grains, all things considered. Under 100 grains and you begin to load the gun way under it's potential. ?? I found 110 grains to be just right for me.

Rat

 

[musketman]

For my .715 to do the "crack" I'd have to load 140-160 Gr. 2Fg (if figuring right). Sounds a bit "stout" to me

I loaded my bess with 150 grains of FFg before, there was a definite "crack", of course the cracking sound came from my shoulder...

Not really, the gun did push like the dickens though, one former member says he loaded his bess with 200 grains of FFg for moose and griz, I never asked him if it cracked or not...

Maybe I'll email him... :hmm:

 

[LFord]

Great discussion here as I am taking my new Bess out this weekend for the first time. I plan trying it first with just a primed pan to make sure I have that right and that I get the spark to the pan right, then going with blank loads(since I will be doing alot of that). Next is a patched .715 ball with a .010 patch and 65 grains of ffg as a basic load. The ball and patch combo are not a real tight fit, but I would rather deal with something easier to load at first. The powder load is what the seller of the musket recomends to start off with.

 

[ffffg]

les, get some .735 balls and .010, .015 patches and some 11 gauge fibre wads for between the powder and patched ball. also lube the patches with crisco, neatsfoot oil, or anything that says patch lube from the store.. a dry patch can start a fire.. been there done that.. im assuming you have a .750 calibre bess,(11 gauge) if its a 12 gauge? then .715 balls and try some .015 and some .020 patches if you can get them.. have fun,, ask what your freinds are using for blanks and use that, paying attention to what they use and what order they put it in.. check loads with ramrod.. i put the ramrod in the loaded gun, set my hand against it and count the number of fingers it covers. then make sure each time i load it is at the same place, so i dont double load..if ramrod is too long out of barrel or too short pull the load.. . good luck dave..

 

[The Baron]

...one former member says he loaded his bess with 200 grains of FFg for moose and griz...

Griz with a Brown Bess? Now there's a fella with nerves of steel! :no:

 

[riarcher]

:hmm: Hmmmm, 1115 FPS? Believe that wouldbe in the neighborhood of 120-130 Gr. 2Fg..
Sounds like more than a couple of folks are close to this (120, 110-115, etc.) Interesting.
So far I've played with 70,80,90, and 100. Seems the 100 is the working best so far. With 70 & 80 I'm getting a lot of "bullet cast" (arching). With 100, it seems to shoot straighter with less deviation in elevation. The 100 Gr. load feels like a nice 12 Ga. shotgun load, not excessive by any stretch of the imagination. But not "Whimpy" either. I'm thinking that my "optimum hunting load" is going to be close to 100-120 Gr. at this point (like Musketman, close to the "crack").
There were some other "rules of the load" too that I can remember. Like 1 grain per caliber (ie; .45 - 45 Gr, .62 - 62 gr., .75 - 75 gr.). Anouther was place the ball in your palm and just cover it with powder and measure. Problem with that is how much one may cup their hand when pouring. Believe all the "wive's tales" were directed to slow twist RB barrels with no consideration to length.
Seems I'll not be worrying about hurting the barrel before I'll hurt my shoulder with load development. eace:

 

[Rat]

No you won't damage or stress a Bess with a normal/standard 11 or 10 gauge black powder load...which ARE in the 100-120 grain zone. I'll say again the I've found 110 grains to be very ideal under a ball, in my gun. Good powerful load, but recoil is still manageable.

Really not sure why so many people insist that the Bess be loaded with super-weak 70-80 grain loads, for other than just plinking or fun.

To tell you the truth I'm not sure if my Bess is "cracking" with 110 grains of Swiss and the tight fitting ball, or not. Should be close to the crack zone...?!?!? Seems maybe it was but I just didn't really think much of it at the time.

I'd LOVE to hunt grizz with Bess...but I'd want two or three other guys with Bess's backing me up!! That would be one cool hunting trip.

Rat

 

[CrackStock]

<<<Really not sure why so many people insist that the Bess be loaded with super-weak 70-80 grain loads>>>

It is because most of the reproduction guns are intended for use by re-enactors who are shooting volley shots in a line of shooters. The gun manufacturers, event planners and re-enactor groups are all limiting their liability by promoting load information that will give smoke, fire and noise without giving them serious liability when a shooter keeps loading a musket that is flashing, but not firing because he is distracted by all of the shots nearby. It still causes injuries at times.

I am not suggesting that you stay under 70 grains as a hunting load, but am answering the question listed above. Your use of the gun is different in that you will be a single shooter and firing a projectile so you will be well aware of the shot going off.

You must be careful in applying historical loading data as many variables have changed in the past 200+ years. Powder is not the same and neither is your barrel. You may be shooting a different size ball. All of these have an effect that has not been addressed.

Good luck,
CS

 

[riarcher]

I think if it "cracked" you'd notice it. ::
The boom or bang is absolutely diff. than the crack. Crack is like the bolt of lightning real close before the thunder.
Surprisingly for me, about all my rifles performed best just below the crack.
Now you know why I was asking. :redthumb:

 

[Rat]

Yes she probably is not...I'm most likely getting confuse with my .58 and .62 which DEFINATELY crack!

I believe the ball used in the Bess "back in the day" was a .690" ball. I usually shoot a .735".

Rat

 

[roundball]

Remembering back in the "Olde Days", folks used to consider a load that made a flintlock "crack" when fired (as opposed to a boom) was considered a way to work up an "optimum load". The "crack' was caused by the bullet traveling the speed of sound (1200 FPS)if memory serves me correctly.

I've seen this topic from time to time and never quite understood if the rule of thumb could be that generally applied across all calibers.

I happen to like stout loads and run max/near-max charges for deer hunting in .45/.50/.54/.58 calibers with roundballs.

The MV of all of them far exceeds the speed of sound but only the little .45 'cracks'...I never hear the same kind of report from the .50/.54/.58

 

[riarcher]

My .45 "cracks" real good with 65 gr 3Fg too.

Found out today, my Bess cracks just ,,,, BLISTFULLY ( :: ),,, at 110gr 2Fg and a "tighter than all getout" patch.
Also surprised to find that one of the all time favorite lubes (virtually) went up in flames on the ground or sat there sizzling.
Found out too that 95 - 100 gr. 2Fg works quite well for me.
Appears again that the wive's tale of load to the crack and fine tune from there would have applied. Would of put me within 10% right off.
Have to admit though, for some reason I didn't think it should of applied (or worked). :hmm: :results: