Cut down rifle...

[dkloos]

I recently saw a rifle (pedersoli kentucky i believe) that had about ten inches cut off of it, basically sawn down to the main pin. Was wondering... how common was it to see a cut down RIFLE in the 18th Century? It seems like a good idea to me, as I would want to have a short, rifled gun on my saddle if I were going off into the woods back in the day. Just wondering how PC it is.

 

[CoyoteJoe]

Well, how many are still around? I really don't recall seeing any original flint or percussion guns cut shorter than about 32". Prior to the 20th century people just didn't believe in short barrels. There are military carbines and musketoons but cut down civilian rifles, not. Lewis & Clark make mention of cutting down rifles which had burst and said they were made to shoot "tolerably well". They were given to Indians as reward for their help.

 

[Bountyhunter]

There are quite a few examples of trade guns that were cut down by the injuns. The museum here has a percussion (converted from flint) rifle that is cut down to about 16". There seems to be some mentions of "canoe guns" and such, but I dont see much actual evidence of authentic pieces.

 

[CoyoteJoe]

Yep, there are some and I suspect they were also cut after they had burst. 30" was the shortest length for trade guns and those were late era and never so popular as the 36"-42" barrels.

 

[Mike Brooks]

Generally only done on guns that had damaged barrels. No such thing as a "canoe gun" in the 18th century.
There is much evidence of full length longrifles carried on horse back.....I mean how else did everybody travel in those days?
Short barreled rifles in colonial america are generally a 20th century mind set.

 

[Stophel]

I wouldn't worry too much about Period Correctness anyway if the gun in question is a Pedersoli rifle! :grin:

 

[dkloos]

ha ha. Well it was more just for my own interest. The owner of the rifle in question is a hunter, so maybe he intends to use it in the woods. Though I don't know how legal it would be... but that's not my problem.

 

[Mike Brooks]

I don't get it, why can't I go hunting in the woods with a longrifle with a full length barrel?

 

[Craig]

The jager rifle, which the Germans brought over and eventually lengthened into the Pennsylvania, etc. rifles were relatively short. I don't know what historical evidence shows, but it seems reasonable to think there may have been shorter rifles than what we picture Daniel Boone carrying. What I am reminded of from time to time is that the rifles that have lasted are the ones best taken care of and perhaps little used. Rich peoples' rifles. Maybe a poor dirt farmer had a short rifle and used it up.

Food for thought.

 

[dkloos]

I asked him, and he said that he rathered that the rifle be shorter, so he could maneuver it easier when slung on his back when he climbed in and out of his tree stand. I don't really understand why it would be so difficult, but hey, to each his own. :youcrazy:

 

[Stophel]

To me, "treestand" and "flintlock" don't really belong in the same sentence! :grin:

As a GENERAL rule, German rifles were "relatively" short. A good average barrel length would be about 28". There are really short rifle barrels, made ostensibly for hunting in heavy cover, generally for wild boar. These are called "Saustuetzen". "Stuetzen" is a VERY short rifle, and should not be used to describe the normal sized rifle. I have an early 19th century example with a 16" barrel! It's pretty neat. I like short rifles myself.

I have recently been trying to find out as much as I can on Swiss rifles. I have seen photos of only a handful. ALL of them have barrels over 40" in length! (yes, they are rifles). This is beginning to seem to be the norm for Swiss rifles. Seeing as how so many of the earliest Penn-German gunsmiths were from Switzerland, this seems the logical "source" for the "American longrifle". Barrels did not "grow", they were long to begin with.

Switzerland. Mountains. Plenty rough country.

 

[paulvallandigham]

WADR, your buddy climbing into a treestand with a gun on his back is being very unsafe. Always use a lift rope to raise and lower your gun into your stand, after you get up into it, and secure yourself with safety straps to your stand or tree. Always use a safety line when going up or down in a tree, so you can be caught and saved from injury or death if a tree branch breaks, or a step breaks. We have more people injuried each year now from falling out of trees and treestand than we do from hunting accidents involving the discharge of a firearm or bown and arrow. If he falls out of the tree with that gun strapped on his back, and lands on it, he may never walk again, much less climb another trees. That is the stupidest reason I have ever hear for cutting the barrel down on a gun! I am sorry to be so severe a critic, but when it comes to hunting accidents, someone has to stand up and tell these folks, STOP IT! Safety first, please.

 

[Mike Brooks]

That ain't nothin' Paul....sometimes I run with scissors.... :haha:

 

[mbw907]

Thank you Paul for the reminder. I have a good friend who is confined to a wheelchair because of a hunting accident. His did not involve a gun, but a bow, but nevertheless, the same dreadful outcome. You can never be too safe, and it is you and your families future at stake.

 

[Wehrmacht]

Recently looked at five English Trade Guns that were recovered from the Appalachicola River within half a mile of where the First Seminole War started back in the early 1800's. Two of the five had barrels shortened to 27-28 inches,and all were loaded with round balls in tow which was still identifiable as tow after all these years!

These were ID'd as Indian pieces,and it is guessed that a dugout flipped over and the pieces couldn't be recovered for some reason.All are presently inventoried and stashed in Florida State Archives where I had a chance to study them.

Edit: A couple were loaded with buck and ball, two buckshot over a RB.

 

[Okwaho]

Some day, the sun will shine,Casey will hit a home run and we can put to bed the discussion ad infinitum,ad nauseum on cut back guns.I do not for one fleeting moment doubt that some guns were cut back,some to extremes.A friend recently bought a trade level gun cut back rather drastically on both ends much as the specimen illustrated in "The Northwest Gun" P.64 No.3.YES, there were cut back barrels and there were some with both ends cut back. NO, there were no classes of guns cut back only the occasional specimen.Canoe guns, blanket guns short barrel ranger guns,and cut back Brown Bess trade guns are fantasy guns no more no less.

I do not, as I said above,
doubt that there were some cut back barrels such as the guns recovered in Florida but they are by far the exceptions not the norm.I do not know where or when these fantasy guns became popular,but they are like the "urban myths" that crop up every now and then.
Tom Patton

 

[dkloos]

Paul - Don't worry about being a critic. I agree with you that it is unsafe behavior and am glad that you have mentioned it. I will pass the word on to him as well. :v

 

[paulvallandigham]

Tom. Let Hollywood put a gun in a TV show, or movie, and the fires are lit to the powder magazine! I suspect that the popularity of these cut off guns is based on some movie. Remember when Steve McQueen starred in Wanted: Dead or Alive, as a Bounty Hunter, armed with a cut down Win. 1873 44.40? The stock was cut off at the pistol grip and lever, and the barrel at the front of the forestock. I believe the gun held just 4 cartriges total. He had to brace the butt of the gun on his knee to cycle the lever to fire it, and point shoot from a stooped position, but everyone wanted one. They even made capguns thatlooked like it when the TV series as a hit! I seem to recall having seen one in the National Firearms Museum, but what its origin was is anybody's guess. I don't believe the gun left Winchester in that configuration.

Like you, I believe that gun barrels were cut down. Some gun stocks were shortened to make a more handy pistol/rifle. But, I serious doubt that such guns left a factory in that condition.

 

[Twisted_1in66]

**SNIP**Remember when Steve McQueen starred in Wanted: Dead or Alive, as a Bounty Hunter, armed with a cut down Win. 1873 44.40? The stock was cut off at the pistol grip and lever, and the barrel at the front of the forestock. I believe the gun held just 4 cartriges total. He had to brace the butt of the gun on his knee to cycle the lever to fire it, and point shoot from a stooped position, but everyone wanted one. They even made capguns thatlooked like it when the TV series as a hit! **SNIP**

Oh man, does that bring back memories! Long ago and far away, that was a black and white show that my older brother and I watched religiously. Careful Paul, you're showing your age...uh...I guess I am too.

I think that cut-down Winchester with the big hoop lever also had a magic magazine. I'd swear I saw him fire 8-12 shots with that thing. :rotf: :rotf: :rotf:

Twisted_1in66 :thumbsup:

 

[Pork Chop]

Here is a thought. If a gun was damaged and cut down, it would be viewed as a relatively undesireable gun by most. Could it be that those that were cut down and were used, have been lost to time as they were not considered valuable enough to keep in good order? Sort of like the disposable guns you see now. As a point of reference, go into any decent sized gun shop. Look for a Markwell Arms or Monarch rifle. They are not considered to be too valuable so most are gone. And they were only made 30 odd years ago...

Just food for thought. I am not an expert on anything gun related - just noodling some logic.