Custom rifles, considering the builder

[Mike Brooks]

Hey, I've seen alot of buffalo nickels in otherwise good guns in my day.... :haha:
My original flint SXS had a indian head penny inlayed under the forestock.... :barf:

 

[ronrryan]

But don't stand for a wooden nickel! Ron in FL

 

[B Shipman]

There are so many posts that few will read this. Rich and Mike Brooks and a few others have this right on. I've been quietly doing this for over 30 years. I won best of show the year Dixon's opened in 1983. I've been a KRA member since '85.

Gunmaking is art. Customers that recognize art make bucks. Those that worry about curl, number of inlays and amount of carving are like the Indians trading shiny beads for Manhattan. Those that have the opinion that " it's too fancy to hunt with" suffer the same. Just a different reason. HALF THE CUSTOM GUNS MADE ARE ANTIQUED. How would honest use detract. Just bullcrap. They are actually , if well cared for , MORE valuable.

Examples. An Allen Martin Shimmel for 2 grand is worth more in the long run than a TOW raised carved inlayed rifle. One is a sculpture, one is beads. One is art. One is a prepubescent effort.

Ian Pratts rifles are absolutely the equal of House rifles. Jim Kiblers' are like- gee- plain wood, all style and finish, Jim Kiblers. Who buys them. Mel Hankla for one. He knows when he's making a huge profit. You could have bought a Pratt rifle for $2000 not long ago. His rifle at the CLA Show Auction went for $8000.

 

[tecum-tha]

Mr. Shipman, you`re right about the art thing. But not everyone can afford a Picasso.(I would rather buy me a rifle though :grin: ) I agree with all the other posters that production guns are not the real deal. They are just like mass printed color pictures. I still think that the finished product should have a reasonable relationship toward the used materials. So I think about $2000 is a good price for a handmade flintlock gun without a lot of specials like carvings, inlays...
I compare a good rifle to a middleclass car nowadays.You needed a rifle back in the colonial days as you probably need a car nowadays. So the prices are accordingly.
But I see a lot of rifles for sale which do not reflect that relationship from material price toward labour. Especially on the CLA website, there are good examples of this.
Another thing is the remaining originals on hand. Very few have survived in an original state and most of the time we do not know the price of one of those pieces back then and what class of people bought it. There are probably more pieces who survived here in Europe, since the conditions were better for those civilian rifles than the harsh colonial environment in America. Back in the colonial days the good material was more expensive than the labour price,that has changed completely.
ML guns are cheap today but are just a nice hobby and no neccessity anymore.
But I can still not understand the success of the european replicas on the US market. Here in Europe, there is a lack of traditional gunbuilders (and demand)and most all quality parts are imported from the US. So most people are forced into the european replicas which are still expensive compared to a cheaper custom rifle in the $1300-1500 class. :shocked2:
:2

 

[roundball]

Those that worry about curl, number of inlays and amount of carving are like the Indians trading shiny beads for Manhattan. Those that have the opinion that " it's too fancy to hunt with" suffer the same. Just a different reason. HALF THE CUSTOM GUNS MADE ARE ANTIQUED. How would honest use detract. Just bullcrap.

A couple of comments...
1) I've looked at MLs on your web site and they are indeed very nice looking rifles;
2) Cost is usually the underlying issue with many of us unless we've just hit the lottery;
3) I am one who has and will state without hesitation that to me...at the price of your rifles, "they are too fancy to hunt with".
4) I am one who respects everyone's right to have differing opinions;
5) In my opinion, your opinion that my veiw is "bullcrap", sounds very elitist.

You were doing fine right up until you demeaned my opinion by calling it bullcrap, and that crossed the line.

:thumbsup:

 

[tecum-tha]

Well, I have probably not buildt enough rifles yet, but I bought sand-cast parts from MBS for my Pedersoli-Lancaster conversion and they seem not to be any worse than the double priced wax cast parts I have seen so far. I think, after looking at my original jaeger furniture, they are about the same quality. The only exception is parts with ornation on it,but otherwise I don`t know.
It is clear to go with a quality barrel and lock, but on the rest of the furniture there is some saving potential according to the style of gun.
For another plain jaeger I would go with the cheaper sand-cast parts and maybe get a better piece of wood. :2

 

[rich pierce]

A well-used "fancy" rifle by well-recognized makers will not be depreciated in value by its use.

We all agree that not everyone needs an art-quality piece or even appreciates the value of the artwork on fine custom rifles. When I say "artwork" I mean the sculptural qualities of the work as much or more than decorative elements. Some folks are plain, practical, and careful with their money and those are very good qualities.

The topic of how to work with a builder to get a good custom gun does not have to degenerate into philosophical discussions of class warfare etc. The same principles apply whether we are talking about a custom piece running over $10,000 or one costing $1800. Find a builder who does work you like, work with him or her to agree on a project that excites you both, and give the builder enough leeway to really exercise his or her strengths. If you are still early in the game and are searching, and don't really know what styles of rifles are being built, what timeframe and place they represent, and how their handling qualities vary, by all means take your time. Maybe buy a well-made plain longrifle from outfits with good reputations and wait a while to see how your taste develops. Do spend your time going to shows and gun fairs and studying originals in museums and in books.

I settled on early, pre-Revolutionary War Pennsylvania rifles as my main interest in about 1980. Living in New Jersey at the time I had the privilege of being close to Pennsylvania and there were many museums and gun shows where originals could be seen and sometimes handled. Once I held the Marshall rifle in my hands, I was smitten and committed. I use this example to encourage folks "needing" a custom gun to do some hands-on research and make sure they are not just going through a phase before they commit to working with a builder to get a rifle in a year and a half. Lots of makers deliver the rifle that was "THE" rifle of a customer's dreams and find it on Track in 6 months because the customer has already moved on to another style and just has to have one built in the style of their current infatuation. On the other hand whan that happens it is good business for the builder and usually the customer gets their investment out, often more, and somebody else gets the rifle of their current dreams.

My other point for the aspiring or beginning builders out there, consider that you should not build a gun you don't want to build with the hopes of satisfying a customer. The interests and preferences of individual customers will change over time, but that gun they had to have "this way" will still be out there.

 

[Mike Brooks]

Well, I have probably not buildt enough rifles yet, but I bought sand-cast parts from MBS for my Pedersoli-Lancaster conversion and they seem not to be any worse than the double priced wax cast parts I have seen so far. I think, after looking at my original jaeger furniture, they are about the same quality. The only exception is parts with ornation on it,but otherwise I don`t know.
It is clear to go with a quality barrel and lock, but on the rest of the furniture there is some saving potential according to the style of gun.
For another plain jaeger I would go with the cheaper sand-cast parts and maybe get a better piece of wood. :2

You are entirely missing the point. :shake: A sand cast trigger guard costs what?.....$12 these days? And a Wax cast trigger guard costs what... $25? That's a savings of $13 on a gun I can get $2500 to $3000. That doesn't make much sense to me.
I use alot of sand cast parts, but not to save money. I use them as I can't get wax cast parts that I'm looking for. I quite often get my parts cast at a local foundry from original parts I beg or borrow. Has nothing at all to do with saving money.
Now, onto "too nice to hunt with". No such thing....with in reason.
I have an original SXS flint gun I hunt pheasants with. It's value is probably $2500 to $3000. I don't worry a bit about using it.
In fact , as I think about it I have never damaged a high end gun on a hunting trip any more than a day at the range, which is no damage at all.
The only time I have ever chosen a "lesser" gun was on canoe trips that lasted several days on somewhat unpredictable water. And that really only due to worry about loss to a roll over. I've had friends loose rifles to roll overs and recover them by diving for them. theses guns were dried out and no worse for the wear.
To wrap this up: I have never sold a gun for less than what I paid for it, modern or antique. Anytime I lay out cash for a gun I always consider what it will be worth in a few years when I may want to sell it....I hate loosing money. :wink:
So, save your money, sell off some lesser guns and buy something that will retain or increase in value. I'd rather have one nice gun that is a joy to shoot and to show others than a 1/2 a dozen guns that I bought because they were "Cheap".

 

[tecum-tha]

I must have missed your points, Mike. :surrender:
But I think it is important when we speak parts only. I know that you get that kind of money out of a gun and that you use MBS parts,too(at least at the tutorial rifle)and your work fully justifies your price. Not knowing the details of the tutorial rifle without the carvings and inlays it would be a rifle in the $2000 ballpark and this is absolutely reasonable.
But I often think these parts are the difference in kit prices when we talk kit from Seller A versus kit from Seller B. Most offer the same barrel and the same lock, then only the furniture and wood remain as variables in the price department.
As most suppliers want to stay in business, the wood is usually suitable as gunwood. I second your opinion that it should be hard and without flaws (at least from the exterior).
For a professional builder, the quality in parts means less time cleaning it up and a quicker turnaround time and therefore a higher profit.
For the home ML builder the $100-$150 savings can be spent otherwise. This may be an upgrade in the wood grade or something to apeace the wife. He will not care if he has to file and sand 1 or 2 hours more.
:surrender:

 

[Dphar]

Example of custom vs cheap factory or import.
I have a rifle built by a friend and mentor that I gave a brand new Shiloh Sharps 45-70(about 1200 at the time IIRC) and $500 for about 20 years ago and I laughed all the way home. Its a "plain" rifle being a Hawken style.

It has won matches, killed game and been hunted with quite a bit. It has some dings and scratches and small chip at the toe. But you know what, its STILL worth far more than I gave for it when it was like new, likely unfired other than Don's test firing.
I traded a factory made for a full custom flintlock rifle. Quality shop made rifle with a only few bought parts used in the lock. Everything else but the barrel was made by Don because there were no suitable parts at the time.
Tang sight is my work. I find I need a cheater these days where its allowed.
I got it from a second owner who obtained it from the first owner needed a car after a divorce and he traded a old Olds Toranado for it. I "found" the gun when the guy asked me if it was worth a 10 year + old Toranado before he traded.

Dan

 

[Dphar]

I must have missed your points, Mike. :surrender:

For a professional builder, the quality in parts means less time cleaning it up and a quicker turnaround time and therefore a higher profit.


:surrender:

Quality parts produce a better, safer product.
Quality parts does not always mean easier.
It always means better.
Most gun makers would do something besides make MLs if profit was the only motive.
Dan

 

[Many Klatch]

Tecum-tha

"But I can still not understand the success of the european replicas on the US market."

A lot of those guns are bought by people that never shoot anything but blanks. For people doing military, a Bess or Charleville that is factory made is OK.

I agree with you on the fancier type factory guns that you see being carried at a shoot.

It is interesting to note that a lot of matches are won by someone with a non-factory gun. Those quality parts do make a difference.

Many Klatch

 

[B Shipman]

Roundball, I apologize. I get waaay too opinionated at times. Having my nightly whiskey Manhattan (good for the heart according to the Harvard School of Public Health, an organization I highly approve of)adds to the excitement.

My idea in pointing out my experience is that I know what the big dogs are interested in. It's not a Schimmel from me. I love to build one once in a while but they just don't sell. Allen Martins, or Pratts, or Judson Brennans just have that IT factor more than mine. Half my customers are KRA guys and what they want is a raised carved Federal period rifle inthe $6-7 range. Ergo, if you look at my website, what do you see.

My arguement, from the standpoint of probable value, is that you are better off, if you are committing $2000 to a rifle, to buy from someone who makes great plain rifles than to spend the same for something fancy that lacks the IT factor.
Rich Pierce calls it the "killer" gun.

$2000 is a lot of money. $6000 is a hell of a lot of money. But they will be worth more after a lifetime of use than you paid for them.

There are also rifles asking $5000 that aren't worth the cost of parts.

I'll also put in a plug for Mike Brooks and Chuck Edwards as full time builders. Totally cool stuff. Extremely reasonable.

 

[Robert58]

Mr. Shipman

There are a few Hawken Rifles listed on The Gun Works website as made by Charlie Edwards. Is he the Chuck Edwards you are referencing?

Thanks,
Robert

 

[Mike Brooks]

I don't know who Charlie Edwards is but I don't think Chuck has ever made a Hawken rifle.
CHUCK EDWARDS

 

[Randy]

Ive dealt with TOW for years ,and they are a great bunch of guys. Their website is a good place for pictures and ideas of what is out there. Their writeups are of course slanted at pointing out the gun's good features and seldom comment on those that are NOT PC or HC. After all, they are trying to sell them. Often there are guns that are just assembled and finished from precarved stocks with huge lock pannels and thick forearms etc. Lots of folks don't realize a precarved stock still has a lot of extra wood for final shaping and fitting a wide variety of parts.

 

[roundball]

Roundball, I apologize. I get waaay too opinionated at times. Having my nightly whiskey Manhattan (good for the heart according to the Harvard School of Public Health, an organization I highly approve of)adds to the excitement.

I appreciate your acknowledgement...and as I already said, the muzzleloaders on your site are beautiful.

But in my world of being a practical regular working guy who's going on age 64 knocking on retirement, a top quality barrel & lock in an early virginia style will do fine for my weekend shooting and 2-3 more deer seasons, then go over the mantle, make a floor lamp out of it, etc...the other $4000 needs to stay in a CD earning interest to live off of.

I didn't even put any 'new money' into this build...just finished selling $1900 worth of rifles to fund it.
:v