Custom mid-1800's PA rifle?

[stombaug]

Here are a few pics of a piece that a friend of mine inherited from his great-grandfather recently. Based on what he has told me, it is from around 1850, and may have been built by a local gunmaker around Knox, PA (Clarion County)... named Sherry. Wondering if anyone can verify, and maybe provide a bit of information about the eagle insignia on the cheek piece. Thanks in advance.
http://i1072.photobucket.com/albums/w361/stombaug/Rifle3.jpg
http://i1072.photobucket.com/albums/w361/stombaug/Rifle1.jpg
http://i1072.photobucket.com/albums/w361/stombaug/Rifle2.jpg
http://i1072.photobucket.com/albums/w361/stombaug/Rifle4.jpg
http://i1072.photobucket.com/albums/w361/stombaug/Rifle5.jpg

 

[TFoley]

Here are a few pics of a piece that a friend of mine inherited from his great-grandfather recently. Based on what he has told me, it is from around 1850, and may have been built by a local gunmaker around Knox, PA (Clarion County)... named Sherry. Wondering if anyone can verify, and maybe provide a bit of information about the eagle insignia on the cheek piece. Thanks in advance.
http://i1072.photobucket.com/albums/w361/stombaug/Rifle5.jpg

You really need to remove the 'Model 1894' photo before somebody less charitable than me makes a comment.

tac

 

[Wes/Tex]

You really need to remove the 'Model 1894' photo before somebody less charitable than me makes a comment.

My thoughts too. Was looking real hard at the photos trying to figure out how some shade-tree gunsmith had worked that into a muzzleloader. Knew it was from a Winchester but was more interested how it fit in the rifle pictured. :wink:

The eagle on the cheek piece inlay is an interesting early Federal style now called "frog-legged", "turkey" or "chicken hawk" and somebody did a good job duplicating it, but I'm not convinced the gun is old.

 

[suzkat]

Your friend was given a nice piece of western pa history. It does look like john sherry patchbox. The condition is very nice but restored finish like many were. I don't have my book here but I will try to post info tomorrow on sherry. He made some very fine rifles. A treasure to be sure. Rob

 

[54ball]

The brass screws look suspect but maybe they were replaced when the rifle was refinished.

To bad it was so heavily refinished and with what looks like the wrong stuff. It looks like it was refinished with box store polyurethane.

It's still a grand old rifle though. :thumbsup:

 

[user 922]

See if you can borrow a copy of Russ Harriger's book "Longrifles of Pennsylvania, Vol. 1, Jefferson, Clarion and Elk Counties". The Sherrys are described in detail with many examples of their work.

Try an inter-library loan from any PA library if you can't find a copy locally.

 

[curator]

Very nice rifle, however, I seriously doubt that it is an original Pennsylvania/Kentucky rifle. Get someone knowledgeable abut these rifles to look at it. It looks to me to be a modern replica.

 

[54ball]

Very nice rifle, however, I seriously doubt that it is an original Pennsylvania/Kentucky rifle. Get someone knowledgeable abut these rifles to look at it. It looks to me to be a modern replica.

A closer look at the barrel, drum screw and other stuff makes it look more like a 1950s to 80s home built rifle.

 

[TFoley]

Yup. The heavy-handed varnish finish doesn't help too much either, nor does the blacking on the barrel.

I'd opine that most of the 1850 date is correct, 'cept you need to change the '8' for a '9'.

tac, former owner of a Peter Gonter long rifle.

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

...A closer look at the barrel, drum screw and other stuff makes it look more like a 1950s to 80s home built rifle.

I'm afraid that I have to agree with you and tac.

 

[Dphar]

...A closer look at the barrel, drum screw and other stuff makes it look more like a 1950s to 80s home built rifle.

I'm afraid that I have to agree with you and tac.

Yep.
Brass wood screws?
This is not an antique rifle and I would date it to the 1960s maybe later.

Dan

 

[necchi]

I think what they're trying to say ClickFlash is let your friend down easy.
While the rifle may well have been owned by his his G-Grandfather and a cherished heirloom by that right,,
It's not a centuries old piece of Americana history. Heck, if it's from 1950 it's still over 60yrs old.

The inlay means,, an Eagle.
The same kind of inlay is still available today with minor variations from any of several supply houses. http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/708/1/IN-EAGLE-1-S

Several things come up, the finish, the bluing on the barrel, the nice shiny brass side plate and trigger guard, the cup on the nipple,,,

It's been a good idea to have the photo's and checking with folks here for a general idea of what he has and certainly worth bringing to any of many local historians across the country for review,,,

 

[hanshi]

Even as a major non-expert the rifle looks, to me, like a very nice mid 20th century rifle. I see nothing that looks 19th century or even pre WWII. Still a nice gun, though.

 

[satx78247]

My GUESS is that that rifle was built "at home" by a fairly talented woodworker sometime after WWII.
It is entirely possible that his great-grandfather did own it and may well have built it himself. - IF that is true, it would & SHOULD be a "pearl beyond price" and a treasured family heirloom.
(ALL that you have to be to own a FINE & VERY RARE antique firearm is "a person with a pocketful of silver". - Possessing one's own ancestor's rifle is "another thing entirely".)

My great-uncle "Ollie" built numerous very nice quality ML rifles at his blacksmith shop in Delaware County, OK from about 1920-1957 & one of those rifles is "on loan to" and displayed at OK State University.
During the OK State Centennial, the rifle was displayed in the "old state capitol city" of Enid & and described (in the catalog of displayed items) as "Typical of the handwork of one of Oklahoma's Best Native Artisans."
(While FAR from being an antique rifle, money wouldn't buy it, though in monetary terms it is likely worth little.)

IF he was my friend, I would tell him to research the provenance of the rifle and prepare to pass it on with the results of his research to coming generations of his family.

just my opinion, satx

 

[stombaug]

You really need to remove the 'Model 1894' photo before somebody less charitable than me makes a comment.

You know, when I posted these pics I saw that and thought to myself that that didn't make any sense at all. I sent him an email to ask if that is really on this rifle, or maybe he got the pic mixed in by mistake. Still haven't heard back.

 

[stombaug]

You really need to remove the 'Model 1894' photo before somebody less charitable than me makes a comment.

OK, I just got some clarification from the owner of this gun. As all suspected, the "Model 1894" stamp was from a 32-20 that he also owns. I blindly posted all of the pics that he sent.

On another note, however, he says that the barrel is actually stamped "1851" with "John Sherry" (he left this detail out in the original conversation). But, he added that this stamping is of very poor quality and barely legible. He also mentioned that his g-grandad blued the barrel in the 40's or 50's. Of course, this is all according to the story that was passed down along with the gun itself.

Based on the feedback, it sounds like this is, in fact, a reproduction that someone tried (unsuccessfully) to add authenticity with a home-made stamping to the barrel. Thanks to all for your input :hatsoff: . As some have stated, this is still a nice piece, and a family heirloom. If it were mine, I'd be carrying it this week in PA's early muzzleloader deer season. :thumbsup:

 

[54ball]

On another note, however, he says that the barrel is actually stamped "1851" with "John Sherry" (he left this detail out in the original conversation).

It's incredible. So much so it's hard to believe it's real and by a known gunsmith....

John Sherry was a gunsmith in Clarion County, Pennsylvania. He apprenticed at the Leman Rifle Shop, where his father was also employed, between 1814 and 1826, and he established his own shop in 1830. Sherry is credited with the invention of the segmental rifle groove, and he was one of the first to use gain twist rifling.

Link John Sherry

Who ever refinished this rifle, did a good job even though they used the wrong stuff. It's part of it's history though.... :hatsoff: :hatsoff:

It should be very valuable.

 

[Rifleman1776]

You really need to remove the 'Model 1894' photo before somebody less charitable than me makes a comment

Yep.

 

[54ball]

If you blow up the pictures especially of the lock area you can see it's legit.

Now it needs to be moved back to the antique firearms identification sub forum...

 

[stombaug]

Just as a follow-up, my friend just sent me a pic of a Caldwell map from the 1870's, that shows the Gilbert homestead in the lower left corner (this is his great-grandfather, the original gun owner) and,interestingly enough, the John Sherry estate just a few miles away:
Link

So, after looking at closeups of the lock and comparing them to the pics in the link to the John Sherry rifle pics provided by 54ball (thanks btw), I am also convinced that this is an original John Sherry piece, that was refinished in the 1950's, albeit with the "wrong stuff", as several of you have pointed out.

Thanks once again for your input! :hatsoff: :applause: