conical shooters

[Walks with fire]

I have a 1/28 twist 24" long barrel that I would like to shoot conical bullets out of but the problem is that every thing I put down the barrel will slide up the bore. This particular barrel is for an RMC flintlock rifle and it has a removable screw in breech plug; odd I know. It's a .502 bore and a conical is too loose.

I came across this idea of using bowstring wax on the conical because it's pretty sticky and the bullet does stay on the charge better. I really have to hit the muzzle on the floor pretty hard to move it out of position. I just don't know what all is in bowstring wax and wonder if it could harm the barrel or be unsafe.

I am pretty sure it's mostly beeswax but it may have some rosin in it as well. What would rosin due in a muzzleloader barrel; I have no idea. I would like to use a conical in this bore but I really don't like any possibility of it moving.

Anyone try such a thing?

 

[rodwha]

Try a 320 grn Lee REAL. I'm afraid of a conical migrating off the charge and wanted something that couldn't move. I think the uppermost band is something like .517" or so.

My Lyman rifle has a 1:48" twist and showed great promise after placing a felt wad under the conical. The first keyholed and was about a foot left and quite low at 50 yds. After which the next two were nearly touching and just below the bull. My grooves are about .520" according to Lyman and I'm guessing is why I need the wads.

 

[BrownBear]

Coupla buds deal with undersize conicals a little differently. I've read about it online, too. Tried it myself with satisfaction, but half a dozen shots doesn't prove much:

Wrap you conical in Teflon plumbing tape, however many wraps to bring the diameter up where you want it.

Another good approach is to paper patch your conicals. Idaho Ron here on the site has it down to a science, and his results are downright outstanding. Check for his posts. I've done it a lot, but only in BP cartidge guns. Great results there too.

 

[Walks with fire]

The Hornady Great Plains bullets shoot great even though they are loose fitting enough to slip off a charge. I tried them at the bench making sure they didn't slip off the charge and fired them. It's been a couple of years ago so the details I don't recall but they were quite accurate I remember that much.

I did buy some plumbers tape and it's thin enough to get the couple thousands I need to keep them snug but don't know what that would do in a barrel once fired. Ironing on Teflon inside a bore might ruin it. The little bit of search I have done so far say's not to do it. Paper patching would be a little too thick I think but I have one wrapped and drying out right now to test. It's just 100% cotton paper and about .004 thickness. Thought about trying cigarette rolling paper too; it might be thin enough.

I want something that's pure lead for a bullet and nothing seems the right size even to paper patch which is what I would prefer to use. It's a light short gun and I don't want anything real heavy for a projectile either. I'm thinking 300 to 400 grains would be about perfect and would probably work in the 1/28 twist. It's a flint barrel so real black is all I can use; should get 1200-1400 fps. with a 80/90 grain charge depending on bullet weight. Trajectory would be ok for a 75 yard sight in. Whitetails are all I hunt and mostly pretty thick cover too. I can't have a bullet that can move or be checked constantly. I will still check it quite often though. If I ever catch it off a charge that's the end of them for me.

I have no idea yet as to what to use for a paper patched bullet as far as lube goes yet either.
I did shoot a deer years ago with the Buffalo Bullets 270 grain ball-et and it worked real well but they are discontinued now; it does fit snug and doesn't slip. Only have a few left though.

I have been shooting ball and happy with them but I always need to experiment with stuff just because it's interesting and I learn things.


Rodwha;
Thanks for the tip on the Lee Real bullets but I didn't see any during my searches. I can't cast anything being an apartment dweller. Can you buy the bullets or just the mold?

Hoping Idaho Ron will offer some advice as well.

 

[coloradoclyde]

What conical have you tried??

 

[Walks with fire]

So far I have tried 240 grain Hornady PA hunter ball-ets; they were horrible accuracy. Way too short.

The barrel does like the Hornady Great Plains bullets but they slip. The bullets takes a good snap to load the thin top band but they just slide down the bore after that. I think a single thin wrap of paper would work though if it wasn't too thick and tear on loading.

I have shot the 270 grain Buffalo ball-et and they shot great and stay on the charge good too. They went out of business though. I need to find something that works and is still obtainable so I can lay in a few rounds.

I have tried both the TC conical bullets before in this bore and the accuracy was horrible with them as well. I don't recall how snug they fit though. It was a few years ago with bench testing only. Still have some left but have no use for them.

I want something pure lead because the velocity is low and would prefer something with a large flat nose over a hollow point. Hard cast doesn't appeal to me even though I have never tried any. Probably wouldn't get any expansion with pure lead anyway. I do want to try a large flat point on deer because I think it would work great. If I try pure lead and it doesn't expand at all then I might as well go with a hard cast bullet. I need something that is consistently under 2" at 75 yards due to the conditions I hunt; needs to thead the needle. That's why I like ball so much is it's accurate and repeatable.

I never spent much time on conical bullets but that's probably why I have the sudden interest. This bp muzzleloader stuff never ends with me. I can't complain about round ball at all though. It's works and it's simple.

 

[Stumpkiller]

Depends which wax. Some are silicone based for the modern synthetics and some are petroleum or beeswax based with pine rosin. There are dozens of brands and formulas.

 

[rodwha]

Do you know the groove depth of your rifling? I'm guessing an oversized conical might be too much if the groove diameter is well under the projectile size, but then I've never tried it.

 

[Walks with fire]

I know the grooves are supposed to be .004 to .006 deep but I don't know the exact size of the bore or groove diameter. I work at a machine shop so I will cast the bore at work and get the exact size on the comparator. We have carbide pins of all sizes so I can check to see if the bore is consistent for the full length. The removable breech plug makes checking it easy so that's good. It's like an inline barrel but it's flint ignition. The RMC is the only gun barrel that has this design. I bought it to try out the stuff we don't talk about here but I want to shoot a full bore conical. I don't care for the other stuff.

The paper patched Hornady Great Plains went down the bore real nice with some Track's mink oil on the paper patch. It loaded real nice and smooth and stayed in position of the bore even with repeated bouncing of the muzzle on the carpeted floor. The bullet pushed out from the breech real nice as well with no binding. I though I had something good until it exited the barrel. The only paper left was in the cupped area of the base of the bullet; it had completely torn off at loading. Going to try a thinner cigarette paper next.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Wrap you conical in Teflon plumbing tape, however many wraps to bring the diameter up where you want it.

Another good approach is to paper patch your conicals. Idaho Ron here on the site has it down to a science, and his results are downright outstanding. Check for his posts. I've done it a lot, but only in BP cartidge guns. Great results there too.

:applause: +1. Paper patch is the older method. Use what works. They shouldn't be drifting off the main charge from the vibration of walking through the woods. (imho)

LD

 

[coloradoclyde]

That's why I like ball so much is it's accurate and repeatable.

I never spent much time on conical bullets but that's probably why I have the sudden interest. This bp muzzleloader stuff never ends with me. I can't complain about round ball at all though. It's works and it's simple.

Sometimes we have to settle for what the gun wants....and not what we want. :grin:

 

[Idaho Ron]

Hi sorry for the late reply. I have an uncle that is passing away and I haven't had time to look here.
What I am using would work in your gun I am sure. It works in every rifle I have tried it in.
I use a Lee 501-440-RF mould. It throws a .501 bullet that weighs 458 grains.
http://leeprecision.com/mold-dc-c501-440-rf.html

I wrap it with two wraps of 9# onion skin paper
http://www.thepapermillstore.com/p...-2-x-11-in-9-lb-bond-smooth-500-per-ream.html

this paper is .002 so I wrap it with two wraps of paper. Then I run it "DRY" through a .501 sizer die.
http://leeprecision.com/new-lube-size-kit-.501.html

Once I have it sized, the sizer presses the paper on the bullet and it stays on real well. When I load it I don't use any lube with my guns. I have seen a couple barrels that were a pinch tighter bore and what I used was a little chap stick around the bullet as I was pushing it down the barrel.

If you lube with an oil based lube it can cause the paper to fail and strip off the bullet as you load it. You have to use pure lead or lead that is no harder than 6 BHN. If you do the sizer will strip the paper off the bullet in the sizer.
Like I said I have never needed lube on my bullets but the guys that do I recommend chap stick. It is easy to carry in your pocket and not messy. I have never had a bullet slide back out. Even when I have the gun muzzle down riding in an ATV boot.
You can substitute the Lee mould that throws a large bullet for one that is lighter. Remember that when a mould says it will throw a 440 grain bullet. that is normally with an alloy mixture. With pure lead all moulds will throw somewhat heavier. If you have any questions feel free to ask. And like Brown Bear said search my name and you can find a lot about that load and my guns.

 

[mooman76]

Another thing I have heard works is to put the bullet or conical between two identical files and run it back and forth causing a knurling effect. This will increase it's size hopefully enough it won't move of the charge.

 

[Grumpa]

Good advice above. One obvious reason your barrel may be cutting paper patches is that it is relatively new, and the lands are sharp. You could lap the bore or (a better idea) shoot it a few hundred times :grin: which should take the sharp edges off the lands.

One of my Harper's Ferry flintlocks has a .58 caliber barrel that was made for shooting minnie balls. I have never used them, but I like the idea of the paper patched conicals - if only to try them out. Might hunt something really big someday. Or want to try some long range shooting at targets.

Keep us posted, and good luck on your experimenting.

 

[Walks with fire]

I went to the range yesterday to test out some small conicals called PA Hunters from Hornady. They are for 1/66 twist so I took my TC Pa Hunter rifle that has that twist and tried them out.

They have some real thick sticky lube on them so I thought they would not move off the charge. I was wrong. I loaded one and pushed it on to the charge and removed the ramrod and then reversed the ramrod using just the ramrod without the jag and it did move off the charge. I pushed it back on the charge and shot the target; accuracy was not as good as a ball but was pretty good. Did that for 3 shots and then 3 shots of ball.

At any rate the thought of a possible bore obstruction from a conical moving off the charge is just too much to accept for me. I will shoot no more conical bullets again. Just the suction of the jag was pulling it off the charge and even once seated again bumping the side of the barrel pointed down moved it. Sure; they could be paper patched; wrapped with tape or whatever and they might never be an issue but using ball is so simple and works. Done with conical.

 

[smoothshooter]

Why not roll the conicals between a couple of rough files like the Civil War skirmishers do with balls in their smoothbores? It will have the effect of increasing the diameter slightly.
I would stay away from the hollow base with the files if a particular bullet style has one.

If it doesn't work, you are not out much.

 

[Rifleman1776]

I would like to shoot conical bullets out of but the problem is that every thing I put down the barrel will slide up the bore.

You certainly have a right to do what you want. But, for practical reasons, why not a prb?
Very early in this game I tried TC Maxi Balls in my TC 'not really a hawken-hawken' and they slid off the charge. Other bullet versions did the same with tests. From then to now I have had no desire to use anything but prb in my muzzle guns.

 

[coloradoclyde]

People that shoot conicals are in denial and haven't fully made the transition to traditional muzzleloading yet... :haha:

Tis a slow a painful weaning process for some...and a skill gap for others... :wink:

Embrace the roundball young Jedi..... :rotf:


Let the barrage begin...... :rotf:

 

[Vaino]

Used my .50 cal. TC Hawken w/ 410 gr Buffalo Bullets and 100 grs 2f and found that they do move off the charge in a clean bbl....also tried Maxi-Balls which were more difficult to load in a fouled bbl and they also moved off the charge in a clean bbl. This MLer is used for elk and has killed 6, but the hunters are warned that the conical does move and they have to check it a few times during the day. So far, no bulged bbls and I do mike the bbl after the hunt....so the guys are doing their job. This is the camp "loaner".

Seeing I didn't like to keep checking this rifle as to where the conical is, I built a close copy of an original Hawken in .54 and use PRBs....now I'm a lot more comfortable because there's no doubt as to where the PRB is in the bbl.....just like to keep things as simple as possible.....Fred

 

[nkbj]

This is a Green Mountain fast twist carbine .50 barrel from what oh, must be almost thirty years ago?
Haven't used a mold heavier than 450 grains in it.