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Center Hammer "Muff" Flintlocks

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Zoar

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I am fascinated with the center hammer flintlock pistol as depicted in the two images above. (The second image is from Roy Stroh, expert gun builder from Georgia).

Does anyone know where I can get books or detailed assembly drawings or detailed information on the center hammer flintlock pistol?

I know John Twigg had a design. But I cannot find detailed information on his designs.

As part of my quest I am seeking how the main spring engaged the hammer/cock and provided adequate force to make a spark on these center hammers and I assume there was MORE THAN one approach to this. Any info is appreciated.

Is anyone else fascinated with these Muff Pistols and center hammer flintlocks?
 
More properly called "screw barrel pocket pistol" ("muff pistols are the very small ones") - they are probably the most common surviving flintlock guns. There must have been tens of thousands of them. As to your question, no book has ever been written about them and only a few magazine articles. Unless they are extraordinary, they are still fairly cheap. The easiest thing to do would be to just buy one in poor condition and take it apart. About 99% of the English ones were made in Birmingham, regardless of the names on them.

There are, of course, variations. Folding triggers, sliding safeties and an early version where the triggerguard slides forward as a safety.

As far as plans are concerned, I think I've seen an exploded view of one but thats about it. The truth is, they have never received much collector interest although the really big ones, so-called "overcoat pistols," will sometimes fetch good prices as will the multi-shot tap actions etc.
 
If you can locate an old Navy Arms Tinder Lighter pistol, you will have most of what you might be looking for. Dixie might still carry something like the tinder lighters. The only thing missing would be the barrel for the most part.
 
Zoar,

Try to pick up "The Queen Anne Pistol, 1660-1780" by Burgoyne. It has a section on the boxlocks like you speak of as well as some photos of the interior workings.
 
Capt Jas--Thank YOU for the book recommendation. I just ordered it from Track.
 
JV Puleo..... said:
Unless they are extraordinary, they are still fairly cheap. The easiest thing to do would be to just buy one in poor condition and take it apart.
That may have been true a few years ago, but IMHO, the prices have seen a steady rise and it is hard to find one for less than $300-400 now. There are usually a few listed regularly on the on line auction sites.
 
mazo--I concur. The small FLINTLOCK muff pistol/boxlocks are easily in that range and if they are in GOOD working order they are even more. If someone has a Flintlock for under $300 let me know! (I do see percussions for less but THAT is not at all the same and not what I want at all)
 
Also---on this quote: "...they are probably the most common surviving flintlock guns"... I really have to question this bold claim. I just do not see a lot of these small "center hammer" flintlocks, and if they really are so plentiful and popular why are there NOT only NONE but why NOT many, many books devoted just to them?

I see some percussion cap guns in a similar design but not the flintlock center hammer with the main spring behind the cock hidden in the handle...
 
Hi Zoar,
I would wait and read Burgoyne's book before forming any opinion about these pistols. Also Neal and Back discuss and show many side lock and boxlock turn-off pistols in their books on British gunmakers. They are very numerous on antique firearm websites and I suspect that Joe P. knows what he is talking about. Burgoyne's book is very good and has some good photos of internal mechanisms. The turnoff pistol was very popular because it was very powerful given the charge. The bullet could fit tightly in the bore making a good gas seal. Unfortunately, they were also slow to load. You also will find that the high-quality pistols, like your Twigg, were nicely engraved and often had beautiful silver wire inlay in the wood. Making one up right should be a fun challenge.

dave
 
Dave--- I bought a cheapy percussion lock "muff pistol" 2 years ago and it was just about worthless in terms of it having any value in relating the function to how the flintlock center hammer mechanism works. They are two different animals and also as indicated I am not talking about side hammers at all. The center hammer flint lock muff pistol IS what I am talking about. And not percussion or side hammer.

I did some more searching on the web today for flintlock muff pistols/ boxlock flintlock pistols and there are very, very few and the average price is $800 and that is for ones in pretty poor shape. And as I do every few months I looked yet again for any companies providing KITS or new guns like the one I am referring to---and that are supposedly " probably the most common surviving flintlock guns"---and NO one is offering those. As some of you may know from my post in Gun Builder's section I hunted and hunted for one these flintlock center hammer boxlocks and the ONLY place I could find the parts was from The Rifle Shoppe and I ended up waiting nearly a YEAR. Again I just question how popular they could be if you can't find many and can't get a kit except from ONE source with a year lead time.
 
Zoar said:
.....As part of my quest I am seeking how the main spring engaged the hammer/cock and provided adequate force to make a spark on these center hammers and I assume there was MORE THAN one approach to this. Any info is appreciated.

Is anyone else fascinated with these Muff Pistols and center hammer flintlocks?
Here is a photo of my three flint turn barrel pistols. They are not the quality of the Twigg though.
Turnbarrelpistols.jpg

Here is a photo of the mainspring on one of them; the other two are the same. Hope this helps.
Turnbarrelmainspring.jpg

I also have two percussion box-lock turn barrels and one slightly larger side hammer.
 
There are no books about them because they are not Colts, Winchesters or Derringers, nor are they military or particularly romantic. They weren't used for dueling (at least not in "regulation" duels) and have generally never captured the imagination of collectors. There are lots of subjects that have had relatively little attention from authors ... there hasn't been a dedicated book on the M1861/63 CW muzzleloading rifles since Fuller wrote "The Rifled Musket" in 1958 and surely there are a lot more people collecting CW rifles than boxlock pocket pistols. Another example is the Brown Bess. There have been exactly 3 books on the Brown Bess starting with Chuck Darling's "Readcoat & Brown Bess" published in 1970. Thirty-nine years later we've had DeWitt Bailey's book and Stuart Mowbray & Eric Goldsteins new book... on a subject you might think would have a huge following.

However, there are a few collectors of pocket pistols - I work with one who has about 60 of them, but for a long time he was pretty much alone at it. He's even thought of doing a monograph on them but we're afraid we won't be able to sell enough to cover the costs. If you want to see some, go to the Baltimore, Hartford or Pottstown shows that are strictly antique in orientation and not over run with black rifles and beef jerky. There are very few venues left that collectors of pre-1820 arms find worthwhile. If they do go to the big popular shows, those aren't the things they take with them.

Having said that, I live in the northeast and I am certain this sort of pistol is far more common here, where there were already large urban populations while the flintlock was still in use, than it is in other parts of the country. They are even more common at English gun shows, partly because about 90% of them were made in Birmingham and because just about everyone carried a pair of them in his pockets in the 18th century. Also, being flintlocks, they are not subject to licensing and are thus much more "collector friendly" than other handguns. I suspect this fact alone is pushing up the prices of the best quality examples.

The prices on all of the Antique Arms dealer websites are almost always at the very top of the market and the auction sites are worse. Search "flintlock" on GB and see how many items ever even get a single bid. When someone does offer an item without a reserve and at a realistic starting price it often gets many bids... but the selling price is almost always below the starting prices for about 90% of similar items. My own experience has been that I've gotten the best deals at specialist auctions and at big shows. At the auctions you are frequently bidding against dealers who are looking to resell so all you have to do is slightly outbid the wholesale value. At the big shows there is real competition for your dollars... if there are 40 pistols in the room chances are someone is going to really want to sell one. This is a lot different than internet auctions where it costs nothing to re-list and item and the seller is hoping to catch the "big collector." This seems to be an ongoing fantasy among auction sellers. After, who is more likely to really know the market, the general dealer or the specialist collector?
 
Hi Zoar,
In addition to what Joe Puleo said, the fact that few makers produce castings or kits for "boxlock" pistols is absolutely no indication of how many were made or how popular they were. It is simply an indication of what the maker thinks will sell now. Finally, do a search for an E-book titled "Explaining the boxlock pistol".

dave
 
Your quote---"...nor are they military or particularly romantic"... I guess this may be another case of beauty is in the eye of the beholder. ...I find these pistols to have exceptional beauty and they are very romantic.

I read your post carefully, however, respectfully I do not agree with the posits, conjectures, and hypotheses of the bulk of your arguments. eg: 'It is not a Colts so there have never been any books on these flintlocks'.

We can agree to disagree. And that is okay. I hope.

In the meantime, I will keep looking for one of these to buy at a reasonable price and continue with my build of one from parts I bought from TRS, and keep talking with people about these exceptional flintlock guns.

I really like this forum because it is possible to talk about aspects of technology or design of flintlocks and there are often many fascinating details and discoveries that are revealed in the discussions. Thanks to all for your input and perspectives and I hope it is okay that we do not agree and can do it with utmost respect and civility.

I would be most interested in seeing a collection of 60 of these Boxlock Flintlocks, and yes I will do an e search for the book on Boxlock Flintlocks. Thank YOU!
 

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