Cap strength, velocity & accuracy

[Nuthatch]

Just curious - has anybody done a test for how much variance in velocity & accuracy a cap provides? Is a hotter cap going to produce faster speeds? Significantly so? Or are all caps the same from a velocity & accuracy standpoint and extra power there simply to produce better ignition?

 

[Uncle Miltie]

I shoot scoped heavy barreled slug rifles with percussion caps and found the "hot" and "magnum" caps caused vertical stringing in my rifles at 100 and 200 yards. I never chronographed shots with them.

In the old days it was believed the weaker caps (GD) gave better accuracy. I believe this still holds true today.

 

[Bad Karma]

Just curious - has anybody done a test for how much variance in velocity & accuracy a cap provides? Is a hotter cap going to produce faster speeds? Significantly so? Or are all caps the same from a velocity & accuracy standpoint and extra power there simply to produce better ignition?

All in all I believe caps are the least important part of the load chain. If the nipples are fresh enough (orifice smaller than .028”) and you’re using good black powder, ignition will be consistent. That’s the most important thing. Use Swiss powder if you want the highest velocities possible with black powder.

 

[hanshi]

I've used several makes of percussion caps over the years and never gave it a thought. But I also don't have a target rifle sensitive enough to tell this difference between caps. All capguns I have are "field" rifles and shoot well enough for my use. I have nearly 1,000 magnum #11 caps plus a couple hundred regular caps and see no difference.

 

[tgfrench]

How much difference is there really with the amount of primer you can stuff in any cap? "Hot" or "Magnum" with caps may be the same as new and improved with laundry detergent.

 

[dave951]

From a minie perspective at least, cap strength does indeed have an effect on accuracy. For a long time CCI made a strong 6 wing musket cap that was the best followed closely by RWS. Then a reenactor had a eye injury from a piece of a cap. He sued CCI and now all CCI makes for muskets is a "reenactor" cap that is pretty weak. Test it head to head in an accurate musket and it'll lose every time.

So, IF you are going for accuracy, why use a known substandard component?

 

[TDM]

No difference in my experience but I’ve used very few of the magnum caps.

 

[Stantheman86]

Target shooters use the cap that "is just enough to set the charge off"

I really don't worry about it myself, I'd rather have a hotter cap

CCI #11 Magnums will not reliably set off Pyrodex in my ArmiSport CS Richmond but Rio musket caps will

I shoot to perforate paper targets or shoot steel with military style weapons, I'm not a world class match shooter.

All you have to do is get fire to the charge so it goes boom. Every type of firearm is different.

I have a BUNCH of the new , weak CCI Musket caps that I got when a GB seller screwed me and "substituted" them for Rio caps I bought. They work just fine in my Parker Hale Musketoon, I may get the occasional pop, no bang with them , maybe once per 50 or so rounds that I shoot at a range outing but I'd rather use them up and save my good ones. Recapping and popping again is no big deal. Get yourself a nipple charger for stubborn loads that won't go off once in a while. I've fired a full cartridge box with them and had no misfires too. You can still get them from Midway or Cabelas so I use what I can easily buy first. They do not work as well in repro Springfields.

 

[Bad Karma]

From a minie perspective at least, cap strength does indeed have an effect on accuracy. For a long time CCI made a strong 6 wing musket cap that was the best followed closely by RWS. Then a reenactor had a eye injury from a piece of a cap. He sued CCI and now all CCI makes for muskets is a "reenactor" cap that is pretty weak. Test it head to head in an accurate musket and it'll lose every time.

So, IF you are going for accuracy, why use a known substandard component?

I own a few long range mid bore rifles. I don’t recall ever trying the magnum caps but between CCI 11’s, Remington 11’s and RWS 1075’s there’s no difference I can detect. As soon as the nipple begins eroding or reaches a certain level of erosion, there’s a marked decrease in accuracy. I’ve never used any caps I would consider substandard.

 

[necchi]

Just curious - has anybody done a test for how much variance in velocity & accuracy a cap provides?

Interesting question,, And good one.
There have been tests done on CF primers that share a lot of data about almost all aspects for individual primers on the market,
, brisance, flame distance, pressures, etc,,
But I haven't seen anything like that done for our percussion caps, beyond the empirical data shared with actual users like those of us that share this forum,
(like seen above, and more).
It's a hard test to do, because of all the other variables involved with the load. Each individual "creates" his own best velocity for accuracy as he loads each combination, each and every time, but that only applies with "that" gun and that guy, and what he's doing with those variables.

That Stuff? Is why I began shooting traditional muzzle loading as a sport, hobby and pass time. I wanted a challenge.
(the other stuff is too easy).

 

[dave951]

Target shooters use the cap that "is just enough to set the charge off"

I really don't worry about it myself, I'd rather have a hotter cap

CCI #11 Magnums will not reliably set off Pyrodex in my ArmiSport CS Richmond but Rio musket caps will

I shoot to perforate paper targets or shoot steel with military style weapons, I'm not a world class match shooter.

All you have to do is get fire to the charge so it goes boom. Every type of firearm is different.

I have a BUNCH of the new , weak CCI Musket caps that I got when a GB seller screwed me and "substituted" them for Rio caps I bought. They work just fine in my Parker Hale Musketoon, I may get the occasional pop, no bang with them , maybe once per 50 or so rounds that I shoot at a range outing but I'd rather use them up and save my good ones. Recapping and popping again is no big deal. Get yourself a nipple charger for stubborn loads that won't go off once in a while. I've fired a full cartridge box with them and had no misfires too. You can still get them from Midway or Cabelas so I use what I can easily buy first. They do not work as well in repro Springfields.

All I use the CCI musket caps for is clearing the gun at the end of a relay. Part of what we do as standard safety clearing procedure in N-SSA competition with muzzleloading arms is to pop one cap with the gun on the shoulder and one into the grass. Only then is the arm allowed to leave the firing line and everyone on the team has to be cleared before anyone is allowed to leave. With the others there's no pop.........bang and accuracy has been up to me.

 

[Artificer]

I realize some folks are happy with loads and accuracy that is "good enough" for the shooting they do and I'm not trying to argue with or belittle them. However, I believe in going the extra distance to ENSURE my guns shoot the very best they can and this includes trying different caps to see which ones give the best accuracy.

As a hunter I want to know the full capability of the gun I'm using is up to any shot I might wish to take and be assured I'm going to take the animal cleanly. When I'm shooting in competition, I want to know the gun's most accurate load so I know when a "less desirable shot" is my fault and not the gun's fault.

When I find the brand of caps and powder that give the best accuracy in one of my guns, I stick to those caps and powder for any and all shooting. I'm going to modify Col. Townsend Whelen's quote to say; "Only the best accuracy for each gun is interesting."

Gus

 

[Bad Karma]

I realize some folks are happy with loads and accuracy that is "good enough" for the shooting they do and I'm not trying to argue with or belittle them. However, I believe in going the extra distance to ENSURE my guns shoot the very best they can and this includes trying different caps to see which ones give the best accuracy.

As a hunter I want to know the full capability of the gun I'm using is up to any shot I might wish to take and be assured I'm going to take the animal cleanly. When I'm shooting in competition, I want to know the gun's most accurate load so I know when a "less desirable shot" is my fault and not the gun's fault.

When I find the brand of caps and powder that give the best accuracy in one of my guns, I stick to those caps and powder for any and all shooting. I'm going to modify Col. Townsend Whelen's quote to say; "Only the best accuracy for each gun is interesting."

Gus

Good morning Gus, I confess I’ve never seen a marked difference when I’ve compared each against the others for accuracy. I do use mostly Remington 11’s for rifles, Schuetzen musket caps for muskets, and Remington 10’s for pistols. Partly from habit of years ago when we bought what was available over the counter at the LGS. Times certainly have changed in that regard.

 

[dave951]

Good morning Gus, I confess I’ve never seen a marked difference when I’ve compared each against the others for accuracy. I do use mostly Remington 11’s for rifles, Schuetzen musket caps for muskets, and Remington 10’s for pistols. Partly from habit of years ago when we bought what was available over the counter at the LGS. Times certainly have changed in that regard.

Wait till you try Swiss and musket caps in a gun you've been using with standard Goex and #11s.

This group is with Swiss and musket caps. I call this gun my "sewerpipe on a stick" aka Schadenfreude Susie. With patch round ball, it shoots about the same only there is no retrieving patches as it shreds them into lint and you have to wipe between shots. This group is with a custom minie I designed for use in youth camp guns as a gallery load. One further note, this was the end of a "torture test" where I had previously fired 15 shots without wiping and THEN shooting for a group. No slow down, just load, aim, fire. Gun was getting hot. The idea was to see how it would preform under harsh circumstances. Recoil is light and since the kids only shoot about 30yd on the camp range, I think it's a keeper. There were 2 flyers and I'll own the shooter error on those. I was shooting rather fast and there was quite a bit of heat mirage rising from the barrel.

 

[Artificer]

Good morning Gus, I confess I’ve never seen a marked difference when I’ve compared each against the others for accuracy. I do use mostly Remington 11’s for rifles, Schuetzen musket caps for muskets, and Remington 10’s for pistols. Partly from habit of years ago when we bought what was available over the counter at the LGS. Times certainly have changed in that regard.

Good morning.

It's been a long time since I used Remington or CCI Caps, as I got spotty accuracy from them. I found RWS caps to be the best for both rifles and pistols, so stuck with them over the years and they never let me down over a long period of time.

RWS by far makes the finest musket caps available.

Gus

 

[Stantheman86]

I'm not a scientist , a chemist or a mathematician, I just go to the range and shoot .

I went through a phase where I was obsessed with getting Slugs/Nessler Balls to shoot out of my. 69 Smoothbore, I finally cracked the code and fired a 6" group at 100 with a Smoothbore musket shooting Lee Slugs. After using different powders, caps etc

Ok, cool....I can use round balls , whatever powder I can find or feel like using and CCI musket caps and shoot 8-10" groups. Who cares, the paper....the deer at the range? Old Indian Ghosts I'm not a formal competition shooter

There are so many variables to shooting, I don't have the time to shoot 3x a week or the ability to keep obtaining Swiss powder and RWS caps, to maintain a 2" group with an Italian repro Hawken

It depends on your needs. This is all supposed to be fun, so don't forget to have some

 

[earlwb]

Well, I am not sure one could reliably get some good muzzle velocity numbers to tell one cap from another as to how good one or the other is. Reliably igniting the propellant is doable though. Black powder has a fair amount of variation to it. Ignition rate of speed could vary as well. Does a fouled bore increase or decrease muzzle velocity. It goes on and on.

I would go with whether the percussion cap reliably ignited the charge or not.

 

[earlwb]

Well, maybe we are both right and wrong. I remember the bench test rifle target shooters with muzzleloaders or BP cartridge guns meticulously loading for every shot with extreme detail. Then being rewarded with incredible groups at the target.

 

[dave951]

Well, maybe we are both right and wrong. I remember the bench test rifle target shooters with muzzleloaders or BP cartridge guns meticulously loading for every shot with extreme detail. Then being rewarded with incredible groups at the target.

THIS

 

[Bad Karma]

I'm not a scientist , a chemist or a mathematician, I just go to the range and shoot .

I went through a phase where I was obsessed with getting Slugs/Nessler Balls to shoot out of my. 69 Smoothbore, I finally cracked the code and fired a 6" group at 100 with a Smoothbore musket shooting Lee Slugs. After using different powders, caps etc

Ok, cool....I can use round balls , whatever powder I can find or feel like using and CCI musket caps and shoot 8-10" groups. Who cares, the paper....the deer at the range? Old Indian Ghosts I'm not a formal competition shooter

There are so many variables to shooting, I don't have the time to shoot 3x a week or the ability to keep obtaining Swiss powder and RWS caps, to maintain a 2" group with an Italian repro Hawken

It depends on your needs. This is all supposed to be fun, so don't forget to have some

It is… for some folks fun is found in itty bitty groups at the range of choice. For others, big clouds of gunpowder smoke. Pretty much everything in between is enjoyable to someone I don’t doubt.

@Artificer I may have to revisit the RWS caps again, when they become available again. IF that happy day comes while I’m able to enjoy it… crazy times.