cal. 50 Getz barrel (need help)

[wolkentanz]

Hello all,

some weeks ago I get my new Jäger rifle with a cal. 50 Getz barrel with deep radius grooves. I have done many tests to get that rifle shooting accurate.

I have tried .490 and .495 rounds with 0.017 patches with moose milk. Powder was Swiss No 2 and Wano PPP (which means FFF) 55 grn. Without wiping between the shots I got no accuracy. When I wipe the barrel between the shots with moose milk I recognized that there was a very hard croud of residue near the bottom.

My impression is that the patches are to thin for the deep radius grooves so that the patch cannot fill and 'wipe' the ground of the grooves.

Members of my gun club gave me the advice to increase the load so that the the round ball will be compressed and fit in the deep grooves while the powder gets off. Moreover they mentioned to try a thicker 0.020 patch so that the deep grooves are 'filled'.

With my Green Mountain barrel (cal. 54) a .535 round and a 0.017 patch with moose milk and 60 grn of Swiss No 2 I get a very good accuracy without wipe between the shots.

So I am a little bit dissappointed with the Getz barrel.

Perhapes you have good advice for the Getz barrel.

Thanks a bunch in advance !

 

[Vaino]

I don't think you can "upset" the RB w/ a stouter load so as to fill the the grooves. Try a thicker patch but have you looked at the spent patches to see if they're either burned, cut or shredded? The heavy fouling near the breech is normal and I use a brass brush before running a wet patch down the bore......Fred

 

[reddog]

Try 2f swiss, about 85 grn and spit patch, also ya need to slug the barrel to see just what yer groove dia. is. Thicker patch with .495 ball might be yer ticket!

 

[paulvallandigham]

I found when I switched my .50 cal. GM barreled rifle from Percussion to Flintlock, I needed to use 65 grains of FFg, rather than 55 grains, to hit the same POI at 50 yards. The vent at the back of the flintlock bleeds off a certain amount of power, and your compression, and velocity are reduced accordingly.

You don't tell us how deep the rifling is on the Getz, and I can't guess at this.

If you think your friends are right, Then first put a filler between the powder and ball to seal those gases. By All means, YOU HAVE to read your patches to be getting anywhere while developing a load for this or any gun. If your patches are cut, or burned, or torn on the edge( No, the frizzey edges are not a problem- I am talking about a piece of the edge of the patch torn off), that is an indication that the patch is too thin. Using a filler will protect the patch from being burned, or cut by gases, but it won't save the patches from being cut by sharp lands, or burrs on the crown of the muzzle. So check each of these things out before deciding you have a bad barrel. If the filler works to improve your groups, and increases your velocity, you will need to buy a thicker patch if you want to omit using a filler when you load the gun.

Getz makes Very Good barrels. Don't hesitate to call him and ask him if you should be seeing burrs or sharp edges on the crown or lands. Some of the barrel makers lap their barrels in house, before sending them out. That is why they cost so much. But, some barrels don't get that treatment because customers want to do their own lapping. You save money on such a barrel, but you have to do the lapping, and do it correctly to make it shoot right.

If you don't know how to read your patches( ie. you don't know what you are looking for or what it means when you see it) Get Dutch Schoultz Black Powder Rifle Accuracy System for $15.00. Its the best money you can spend and will teach you how we used our patches to help us find loads when we didn't own chronographs.
http://www.blackpowderrifleaccuracy.com/

The filler can be a wool wad, like sold by T/C, with wonderlube impregnated in it, or OP Wads, sold by Circle Fly, or even a Fiber wad sold by Walters. I have used 50 grains by volume of corn meal and also Farina, as a filler. Wasp and Hornet's nests are traditional fillers used to seal the gases behind the PRB.

The depth of the rifling is a clue as to how thick a wad you need to be using. When you get a crud ring at the muzzle( How long is that barrel?) it is either an indication that you are not using enough powder, or you don't have enough lube in the patch. You may find that going up to a .020" patch will fix your problem, but I do think you need to increase that powder charge, too.

If you find a patch thickness that provided you the kind of small groups you desire, consider lubing the barrel as you drive the PRB down by putting a greased cleaning patch between the jag and the PRB. That way, the whole barrel is coated with grease, to both soften fouling, and to " feed " extra lube into your patch material as it leaves lube behind it when the gun is fired.

Target shooters have found that lubing the barrel will both increase the velocity about 20 fps, AND it lowers the SDV of the shots, by eliminating any dry or rough spots in the barrel causing the PRB to hesitate as it accelerates down the barrel.

Finally, you are doing an expensive barrel no favors by NOT cleaning it between shots. As long as you only shoot PRB through it, mechanical abrasion is not likely to occur. But the rust, and heat from the burning gases burning that residue all along the barrel will do it no good.

I have never understood the hurry to fire fast shots out of a MLer. If firing a gun fast is what trips your trigger, why not buy an inexpensive modern semi-auto rifle, in .22 rimfire, and blaze away with it? Shooting a fine ML barrel like those from Getz is an honor and a privilege, because of the workmanship involved.

I like to FEEL how smooth the lands are as I run my PRB home onto the powder charge. When I clean my barrel between shots, for safety sakes, I like to feel that last dry patch I run down and back out of the barrel rub smoothly over the lands, knowing that it is dipping down one last time into the grooves to suck up and pull out any remaining residue stuck in the corners, and also taking damp residue out of the face of the breechplug, so it can't foul my next powder charge. You can't get that joy from cleaning a modern gun to shoot. Its my way of stopping and smelling the roses in life.

I hope this helps you.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

It is pretty hard to beat a Getz barrel. I would try a thicker patch and a heavier powder charge--at least 80 grains. See if that doesn't help.

 

[wolkentanz]

Hello all,

thanks for the quick response. The barrel is 36 inches long. The groves are 0.018.

Paul: Should I use FF or FFF powder (80 grn) ? You mentioned to use grease not moose milk souked patches and use grease too for wiping between the shots ?

The hard croud I recognise is near the ground of the barrel.

Thanks for your help !

 

[Dphar]

Hello all,

some weeks ago I get my new Jäger rifle with a cal. 50 Getz barrel with deep radius grooves. I have done many tests to get that rifle shooting accurate.

I have tried .490 and .495 rounds with 0.017 patches with moose milk. Powder was Swiss No 2 and Wano PPP (which means FFF) 55 grn. Without wiping between the shots I got no accuracy. When I wipe the barrel between the shots with moose milk I recognized that there was a very hard croud of residue near the bottom.

My impression is that the patches are to thin for the deep radius grooves so that the patch cannot fill and 'wipe' the ground of the grooves.

Members of my gun club gave me the advice to increase the load so that the the round ball will be compressed and fit in the deep grooves while the powder gets off. Moreover they mentioned to try a thicker 0.020 patch so that the deep grooves are 'filled'.

With my Green Mountain barrel (cal. 54) a .535 round and a 0.017 patch with moose milk and 60 grn of Swiss No 2 I get a very good accuracy without wipe between the shots.

So I am a little bit dissappointed with the Getz barrel.

Perhapes you have good advice for the Getz barrel.

Thanks a bunch in advance !

Load is too light IMO. Try 65 and 75 gr of FFFG. Perhaps as much as 90.
One of these charges might work better. Not sure that the ball will upset much and it certainly will not upset enough to make the patch fill deep grooves.
You can try FFG may or may not work. 90 gr of FFFG Swiss works great in my 66 twiist 54.
You may want to try some different patch lubes as well.
If the stuff you are using contains any petroleum oil it may cause hard caking in the bore.
Really deep grooves cause more grief than they are worth. Anything more than about .012" is a waste and only increases blowby.

Dan

 

[paulvallandigham]

So that I understand you clear, are you saying the groove depth is .018" for each groove, or is that the total groove depth measuring the barrel from one groove to the opposite groove? Usually, unless you are shooting an antique, or someone's version of a Hawken rifle, grooves are rarely more than .010" to .012" deep each. I would expect that a Getz barrel would have cut grooves that are about .008, to .009" deep, which meet with your total groove depth.

Cloth patches will compress to at least 1/2 their thickness in the barrel, so You need to measure the land to land diameter( the bore) with calipers to know what clearance you begin with using any particular ball. My GM barrel, for instance, measures .500" across the lands. I am shooting .490 Balls, but have tried .495. They shoot as well, or better, but are difficult to load, without bruising the palm of my hand on my short starter. I am using a .020" thick patch, but was using .015 and having fliers and wider groups. The patches were not burning, but they were not looking right, as do the .020" patches. So, it took me a second trip to Friendship to find some .020" patching material, and that is what I am returning to use in my gun.
If your grooves are actually .009" deep each, then you want a patch of at least .020( double the depth plus a little more). When you get to the thicker patches, I believe, from personal observation, that they can compress even more, so you need the .020 to .024" thick materials.

I do prefer Wonderlube( NL 1000, Bore Butter) for lubing my patches than other things I have tried. However, I am going to try Ballistol this summer, and see how that works. I am expecting great things from reading posts from other members, here. I was given a bottle of Ballistol so I have to try it. I also want to use a thinned version of it with the Dutch Schoultz method, of greasing patch strips, with a diluted version, then drying the patching, and rolling the product up into a nice roll, hold with a rubber band, and save in a plastic container or zip lock baggie. I am also going to be cutting my patches at the muzzle and stop using the pre-cut. Perhaps it my old age eyes, but I seem to get the darn things crooked more than I remember doing 33 years ago. I know I can eliminate this one problem that affects accuracy by cutting the patches at the muzzle, so I am done with the pre-cuts. They may go on a trade blanket if I don't find someone at my club who thinks they struck gold when they find out what I have to trade or sell.

I have tried both FFg and FFFg in my .50. I found that I get better SDVs using the FFg powder in my gun. Since I clean between shots, any difference in residue between FFg and FFFg is irrelevant to me. I am not in a hurry to get a ball stuck halfway down the barrel. I already have gone through that experience a couple of times, just to make sure I knew how much trouble Not cleaning between shots can be! :rotf: :rotf: :grin: :wink:

I suggest you try both powders, over a chronograph , to see what delivers the smallest SDV, and consistent velocity. The Chronograph doesn't lie. :hmm: Just remember that the FFFg burns faster, creating greater chamber pressure, and slightly faster velocities. To get the same velocity using FFg , you probably will have to increase the load of FFg about 10-15% over what you used shooting FFFg powder.That amount to 10 grains or less, and I can afford that difference with the little amount of shooting I now get to do with my bad back. I will send you a PT explaining why I think FFg will work better in a flintlock.

 

[rf50cal]

I agree with trying a heavier load. My latest rifle has a Getz .50 cal barrel. Started with 50 gr. of GOEX 3f. and worked up. With 50 gr. the groups weren't too impressive. At 70 gr. I started cutting bullet holes. Good enough for me!

 

[OTHERN]

I have a getz 50 cal with round bottom rifling. In my experience round bottom rifling usually needs thicker patching. I use 28Ths denim with a 490 rb. 495's don't do as well in my rifle. I also use 80 gr of FFG. BTW my round bottom rice in a 40 cal also needs thicker patching than my other 40's and others that have round bottom barrels around here also say the same thing-Thicker Patching.

Othern

 

[Semisane]

A little off topic, I know. But what is the advantage of a round bottom? (On guns, that is - I know about women. :haha: )

 

[Many Klatch]

I have had a Getz .54 barrel with round bottom grooves for years. It likes a .018 denim spit patch and 75 grains of 3F Goex powder. Try increasing the patch thickness and upping your powder charge to 60 or 65 grains. The nice thing about Getz round bottom rifling is that the gun doesn't get dirty. I can shoot 30 or 40 rounds through it and never clean.

Many Klatch

 

[wolkentanz]

Hello all,

sorry that I did not introduced myself. My name is Tobias and I life in Europe. I am shooting since 4 years flintlock rifles and about 15 years caps lock.

Most of you recommand to increase the load. I will do that. But at first I will collect some patches and see how they look like after leaving the barrel. If I understand you right we will see if it has the right thickness.

The patches I use actually have 0.017 not compressed and 0.01 compressed thickness.

Each groove of the barrel is 0.019 from the 'corner' down to the radius. That means 0.01 groove depth and 0.009 'radius depth' for each groove.

One time I forgot to load the powder in this gun and I pulled the patched 0.495 ball with the 0.017 patch out of the barrel with a special 'screw'. The interesting thing was that there are only marks on the round ball formed by the patch and the fields of the barrel. But no marks of the patch where the deep grooves are.

I think that indicates that the grooves are not 'sealed' by the patch.

What do you think about this ?

Best regards

 

[Mike Brooks]

Yep, you need a thicker patch and a different lube. Try wonder lube, it always worked for me and I never wiped between shots and always got great accuracy. Unlike some long winded posters I have actually shot alot of Getz barrels and never had any problems. I'd go with somewhere around 65gr of 3fff goex, .018 to .020 patch and the .490 ball. I'd try the .495 with that load too. You should be able to work up a load with that barrel that requires no swabbing in between shots.

 

[paulvallandigham]

If the groove depth is .010", then you surely need to switch to denim, or thick linen cloth of about .024" thickness, and use the better, thicker lubes.

At the top of the Index page here, you will find a " Member Resources section, Tobias. There you will find the formula for Stumpkiller's Moose Juice, and Moose Snot. YOu can make these lubes yourself. There are other formulas given here by many different members, using everything from Olive Oil to Ballistol to cold creams for their base. Most of us have found that using a NON-petroleum based oil makes for a better lubricant, because the oil-based ones tend to burn in the barrel, and really dirty it up with a sticky GOO! that is very hard to clean out unless you use alcohol in the barrel to dissolve the stuff, and then a bore brush to pull it out. That is a lot of work.

YOu can buy Wonderlube through the internet from many suppliers, like Track of the Wolf, and have it shipped to you. Wonderlube has several names, like Bore Butter, and NL1000, but they are all the same thing.

Some guys make do with using ordinary lard, or " Crisco" which they spread on the patch fabric, and then zap in a microwave oven for a couple of 5 second bursts, to soften it enough to help it impregate the fibers in the patch fully. I you don't have a microwave oven, just put the strips on waxed paper, on a tray and let them sit in direct sunlight for an hour.

Some guys melt lard down in a pan, and just dip the strips of patch material in them, and set them aside to dry. I think this method ends up putting too much grease on the patches, but that is something each shooter has to decide.

The whole reason to have a Getz barrel is to get that round bottom grooving to make the gun easier to clean. Without the corners found with cut rifling, crud has a hard time sticking in the grooves. A spit patch( patch you stick in your mouth to soak with your saliva) is usually all that is needed to clean it between shots. You may want to run a drying patch down the barrel if the patch comes out looking very damp and gooey! before putting that next powder charge down the barrel.