Buttstock on pistol...

[cynthialee]

When you put a butt stock on a pistol thus making it a makeshift carbine, is it considered a pistol or is it considered a rifle?

 

[hawkeye2]

It probably depends on whether the Warden was having a bad day or not. :grin:

 

[cynthialee]

It probably depends on whether the Warden was having a bad day or not. :grin:

:rotf:

 

[zimmerstutzen]

That question has come up here in PA for what makes a gun a shotgun. Is a smooth bore 16 ga pistol a shogun or pistol. (A pistol over 40 cal cannot be used for small game.) Most laws pertain to modern guns and muzzle loaders are not even considered, when some rules are made. Forinstance is a If I take a percussion rifle, with a pistol grip and shorten the barrel to 12 inches, is it a rifle or a pistol? Add the complicating fact to the question of whether it is a readily detachable stock and a new complication adds to the mix. Here in PA, the only regulation to short barreled muzzle loaders that we have is when some body carries them concealed on the person without a permit. (Technically a 209 Inline pistol or short barreled 209 in line long gun is considered a modern gun for our state carry & transport laws The Keystone People's Republik) Don't know what bizarre rules some other states have. If none, consider your self fortunate.

 

[Rev_William]

I was told by a game warden in wa 20 some years ago attaching a butt stock converts it to carbine/rifle status when I had a bp revolver and wanted to use the butt stock with it. may have changed since I lived there

 

[Wes/Tex]

I would suggest you check with the local game warden after getting a copy of the state's regulations and seeing what the actual specification really are. If the regs aren't clear or specific, the local game warden is the guy who's going to decide if you get a big ticket for using it. The actual decision would be the judge but they usually come down on the side of the warden, if they have to pick sides.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Here in the People's Republic of Maryland, that's a very odd area..., for caplock, flintlock, wheel lock, and matchlock guns are all considered antique firearms, and thus in their own category within the law. IF you were using say an 1860 army repro with a stock, you could hunt small game. If you tried for deer with a BP handgun, you have to be able to load at least 40 grains of BP, so you are talking single shot, 1st Model Colt Dragoon, or a Colt Walker. If you slapped a stock on it, the gun would have to take the same minimum powder charge of 60 grains as any other shoulder fired gun. Might be OK in a Howdah, or a single shot like an 1842 Naval pistol, but not in something like an 1860 army.

LD

 

[54ball]

This is the thing about the law that most folks don't understand. It's not the job of of LEOs to interpret the law, that's the citizens and judges job.

So if a LEO suspects a violation you can be charged even if there is not one. The judge sorts that out. Judge and jury for more serious violations.

Even though the ATF exempts pre 1898 firearms, pre 1898 firearms are still firearms. I know that's clear as mud. These laws can vary from state to state.

What you can get into with the pistol butt stock thing, is the short barreled rifle/ sawed off shot gun laws. Legally you can own the pistol butt stock and the pistol but when you attach the stock to the pistol by legal definition it becomes a short barreled rifle.

The thing here is without the stamp possession of a short barreled rifle could be a 10 and 10 violation. That is ten thousand dollar fine, ten years in prison.

Even though it's pre-1898 the short barreled laws can and often do supersede the exemption. Even though you may see these pistols at shows so assembled if they were arrested they could find themselves in serious trouble. It's the same thing as folks speeding during rush hour. LEOs are not going to pull you over for 5 miles an hour above the limit but if they did, you would be in violation and subject to the penalty.

Sawing off a percussion double so it has 12" barrels is the same violation as sawing off a new out of the box double bbl if you leave the butt stock intact.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

Sawing off a 12 ga percussion double and making a Howda pistol is not a violation under the feds, or we would need a permit from Big Brotha just to have the muzzleloading Howda pistols sold mail order through Cabela's. In various states, it does indeed vary hugely. In PA, antiques are exempt from most of the gun laws. Antiques are considered original perc or flint guns or repros there of. (In lines are not so excluded) But antiques are not exempt from a few positions of the law, for instance they can't be carried concealed. And short antique guns, can't be carried loaded in a vehicle, except by those having a CCP. The state firearms law doesn't make transporting a loaded antique are a violation, the Game law does. (Pa Laws are unnecessarily complicated.)

 

[54ball]

Maybe I was not clear. It would have read better if I said this,
Sawing off a percussion shotgun's barrels to 12 inches and leaving the butt stock is the same as sawing off a new shotgun's barrel and leaving the butt stock intact.

Howda pistols are pistols, they do not have butt stocks. Put Howda barrels in a full buttstock stock then you very well could have an illegal gun.

All I'm saying is read the laws on short barreled guns and rifles.

Laws are funny here's is an example of a traffic law from Alabama.

Functioning windshield wipers are required for a vehicle. The law says nothing about the actual windshield. So technically you can drive a car without an actual windshield and be legal as long as you have functioning wipers.
So a person drives around in a car without a windshield and gets ticketed. He has working wipers so he takes it to court. The judge interprets the law this way.

Even though the wipers operate they do not function properly because there is no windshield for them to function on.

Do you see what I mean. The pre 1898 exemption and then other laws that vary from state to state can add a lot of confusion. How a person reads and understands a law may not be the same as how it was intended and how it will be interpreted by a judge.

 

[MattC]

This is similar the situation with the T/C Contenders and Encores. The cliff notes version is that if the frame left the factory as a rifle, you cannot make it a pistol. If it left the factory as a pistol, it can be converted to a rifle. You can have the parts; the buttstock and pistol length barrel to make an SBR, and untill you actually put them together as such, they are just parts. Once you assemble those parts into an SBR, you are in violation. There was a point where the market believed that simply having the capacity to assemble the parts into an SBR constituted the violation.
Legal language does not make these things any easier, and when we look for sharply definition in rules written in crayon, it gets even worse.

 

[cynthialee]

So far my take away is that if I spot a coyote: I grab the pistol and shoot it as is and not put the buttstock on the thing.
Maybe I should sell it off...

 

[MattC]

I have a couple of the TC pistols. My decision was to simply keep them as pistols, and if I wanted a rifle, I would just get another frame. The laws are so layered and complicated that I personally just take the easiest way.

 

[sc45-70]

http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showpost.php?post/1026751/

If a state allows muzzle loading rifles and pistols, what difference does it make?



SC45-70

 

[Patocazador]

State laws may vary but federal law only deals with modern guns. A butt stock on a black powder pistol may be a short barreled rifle but it is not against federal law. The same setup on a centerfire Ruger Blackhawk IS a short-barred rifle and a violation if you don't have a Class II dealers license or paid the appropriate taxes after being photographed and fingerprinted.

 

[54ball]

Under Alabama law I was wrong.
I checked the Alabama firearm law. This is what I have found out so far.
Firearm- weapon from which a shot is discharged by gunpowder.
So in Alabama, by definition; muzzleloaders are firearms.

PISTOL. Any firearm with a barrel less than 12 inches in length

2) RIFLE. Any weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from
the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made
or remade to use the energy of the explosive
in a fixed metallic cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each pull of the trigger.

(3) SHOTGUN. A weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired
from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell
to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger.

(4) SHORT-BARRELED RIFLE. A rifle having one
or more barrels less than 16 inches in length and any weapon made from a rifle (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if
such weapon, as modified, has an over all length of less than 26 inches.

(5) SHORT-BARRELED SHOTGUN. A shotgun having one or more barrels less than 18 inches in length and any weapon made from a shotgun (whether
by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches.

I thought these were interesting.

Selling,etc.,pistol or bowie knife to
minor.
Any person who sells, gives or lends to any minor
any pistol or bowie knife, or other knife of
like kind or description, shall,on conviction, be fined not less than $50.00 nor more than
$500.00.
Any person who, while fighting in the streets of any city or town, or at a militia muster, or at any public place, whether public in itself, or made public at the time by an assemblage of persons,uses or attempts to use, except
in self-defense, any kind of firearms shall, on conviction, be fined not less than $200.00 nor more than $500.00, and may also be imprisoned in the county jail or sentenced to hard labor for the county for not less than six months.

So in Alabama at least, a short barreled ML 12" or less would be considered a pistol. That pistol you have would be legal. Under these laws a SBR or shotgun would have to use a metallic cartridge. So a muzzleloader is not a shotgun or rifle but it is a firearm under Alabama law.
Your state may be different. :redface: :redface: :redface: :redface: :redface:

 

[54ball]

Checked...
Washington laws for SBR SBS are identical.

 

[54ball]

Link ATF

I think this puts it all to rest.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

Thanks for the ATF link. I printed off a copy for the next time a "know nothing" asks me about my Tradition Buckhunter pistol with the rifle butt stock.

A buddy gets manure about his shortened CVA kentucky rifle. It had been bubba butchered before he bought it ($10.00, whadda deal) , so he cut it down to a 15 inch barrel. His kid used it for several years and he sometimes still uses it. Even a deputy WCO asked him if he had "the permit"

 

[54ball]

I think that would be a good idea, to have a copy on your person, if you use a short barreled BP ML or revolver.