Burning patches suddenly

[renegadehunter]

This is more informative than any questions really, but maybe it will save someone else some grief too. Sorry this is such a long read, but I wanted to paint the whole picture.
This is concerning a .54 Renegade, 70grns of Goex ff, a .530 RB, and .015" dry patches.

I recently have been struggling with burnt patches. It seemed to start when I started experimenting with different patch lubes. I was looking for the best of both worlds, a patch lube that I could use for hunting and the Muzzleloader club shoots I attend. I was hoping for a lube that would be fine if left in the barrel all day hunting (no drying out, fouling powder, or causing rust), but also one for the club shoots that would allow shooting in the neighborhood of 10 times before swabbing was needed. I don't mind using two different ones, I just thought it would be nice if there was one that would actually work for both. I tried lubing some patches with a 6:1 ratio of DA/CO first. Nope, patches were burning up and I did play around with some different ratios. So then just for kicks I tried lubing some patches with NL1000. Nope, they were burning too. Weird one there, because I can buy the pre-lubed ones from the store and they look fine, I just have to swab every shot. No problem, I'll just return to using T/C #13 as my patch lube for the club shoots, which worked before...except I found that I was now burning patches with it too.
Hmm, what is going on? I tend to assume the worst at first, so I started worrying that my cleaning procedure wasn't good and I had damaged the barrel somehow. A bore light showed that it still looked nice and shiny.
Then I thought that maybe the weather played into it more than I realized, and that when I first checked groups and patches when trying the #13 as a lube I had gotten lucky and that this combo wasn't all that good in the first place. So then I decided to try to find a tighter weaved patch to try, like pillow ticking. I happened to find that CVA makes a precut pillow ticking patch that is .015". Perfect I think, so I order them. Well, they show up and are noticeably thicker feeling (I don't have calipers at home...) than my cotton patches that are marked .015". I try them anyway with some #13 for lube and find that they are impossible to seat after the bore has been fouled with the first shot, even when I swab the barrel. This results in my first experience of using a ball puller, as it got stuck just past the depth of the short starter...boy they sure are fun to use aren't they? lol

I finally take some of the CVA pillow ticking patches and some of the cotton patches to work and measure them with calipers. The marked as .015 pillow ticking patches are measuring .0175 consistantly, and the cotton marked as .015 patches measure .011 consistantly.

After thinking about it I realized that I had used up my bag of .015 patches I'd bought at a local store and gotten into a bag of patches I'd bought from TOW right around the time I started experimenting with different lubes. I think the first bag must've been closer to the promised .015" that they are supposed to be. This now means that tests of other lubes wasn't with the thickness of patch I thought I had and can now be done over again, maybe the DA/CO will work...?
Anyway, I just wanted to share this experience. I learned that the simple use of some calipers on any newly purchased patches is a real good idea. I never was very good at reliably following the K.I.S.S. method, lol.

 

[Billnpatti]

Go to Sears and buy a micrometer. They have some that are very reasonably priced. http://www.sears.com/skill-tech-1-...p-00940774000P?prdNo=2&blockNo=2&blockType=G2 So has Harbor Freight. http://www.harborfreight.com/0-to-1-inch-range-digital-micrometer-895.html+ Once you have a micrometer, you can go to any fabric shop and buy the exact thickness of patching material that you want. If you find that your rifle shoots best with .015 patches (a measured .015 not just the label on the package) then take your micrometer and go to your local fabric shop and look for a tight weave 100% cotton fabric of that thickness. I like a cotton "drill" fabric that is used to make pockets. In some places it is known as "pocket drill". You can also find pillow ticking there if you prefer it. If you buy pillow ticking, just make sure that it is 100% cotton with NO COATING on it. There is some pillow ticking that has a plastic-like coating on it to keep feathers from leaking through. Do not use it because the coating will melt in your bore and make a mess that is almost impossible to remove.

Forget using pre-packaged patches. They seldom are the thickness that is printed on the package. You never know what you are getting unless you have a micrometer to actually measure the thickness.

If you don't know how to properly measure the thickness of a soft material such as fabric, send me a PM and I will tell you how to do it. I use the exact same method as Dutch Schoultz to get the uncompressed and compressed measurements.

 

[renegadehunter]

Thanks for the insight, I think buying material where I can measure before hand is going to be the way to go. I'll probably just use calipers, as I used them like an extension of my arm for years while working in a sawmill. When I measured 10 of the pillow ticking and 10 of the cotton patches I got a consistent range of about one thousandth, so my pressure must be fairly consistent. The pillow ticking ranged from .0170 to .0180 and the cotton was an even more consistent .0110 to .0115. I'll look for some pocket drill that measures in the .0145 range.
Now, to decide which is the best way to precut them at home. I've heard sharpening the end of a piece of 1-1/4 conduit and using a mallet works pretty good...any other suggestions? I don't care if they're square or round, just want a fast way to precut them. I just simply prefer to precut them rather than cut at the muzzle.

 

[Rifleman1776]

dry patches

:shocked2:

Dry is a formula for trouble.
Trying to go ten shots without swabbing is another road to trouble.
Weird lube formulas might work but if you stick with what others have luck with you might get on the right track. There are many lubes, often (very-very often) discussed here. So a search.

 

[ohio ramrod]

I have found that a leather over powder wad stops burned patches and prevents heavily lubed patches (or minis) from fouling the powder, :idunno:

 

[M. De Land]

I bet a milk carton wad will do the same thing and they come already pre-lubed with wax!

 

[Wes/Tex]

Old secret I learned and has been more currently rediscovered by Fadala and others is to insert a lubed patch in the bore before loading the patched ball. Sam suggested buying the next smallest size (.50 in a .54) for this, but I never bothered buying an extra size. Has prevented patch burning up to about 180 grains which is plenty and then some. Also one of the reasons I switched to chamois leather patches...better compression than cloth and don't smolder on the ground. Little more expensive than using cloth but my days of shooting 100's of rounds a month are over.

 

[Dr5x]

Renegadehunter,
Calipers won't really work in measuring compressed patch thickness. At best, they will bend and usually break the caliper.
The micrometer will llow you to exert some pressure where the caliper won't

Unless you a very different sort of caliper.

Dutch Schoultz

 

[Billnpatti]

Dutch is right.....no surprise there. A caliper is not the way to measure patch material thickness. :nono: You need one of the micrometers that I showed you. A caliper is fine for measuring hard materials but absolutely will not work for making proper measurements of patch material. In order to get the proper measurements for the thickness of patch material, you need to make two measurements (1) the uncompressed measurement and (2) the compressed measurement. You can't do that with a caliper. :shake: Go ahead and spend the few bucks to get the proper tool.

 

[ohio ramrod]

It would probably would work as well. I've got lots of leather scraps, but no cardboard milk cartons.Sp I use leather! :idunno:

 

[leslie]

While you are in the fabric shop getting patch material check out the roller cutters.Better still if your wife sews she may have one,then you need to buy replacement blades,be careful those things are sharp.You can cut patches very fast,square that is.Don't cut on a table top or counter top, they make a mat for that.

 

[ZUG]

dry patches

:shocked2:

Dry is a formula for trouble.
Trying to go ten shots without swabbing is another road to trouble.
Weird lube formulas might work but if you stick with what others have luck with you might get on the right track. There are many lubes, often (very-very often) discussed here. So a search.

Never so correctly stated -- I've started more fires with the dry lube that my club insisted I stop using it. My club also insists on wiping between shots no problem there - my rifle shoots better with a wipe besides I did not get into this black powder stuff to be in a hurry or fire hundreds of shots in 10 min - I got the M1A for that:haha: .

 

[Dr5x]

You say that your club suggests you use "Dry: patches.
Can you tell me how these are prepared?

Usually, if the patching creates a a seal that does not allow any blow by of the flames etc. of the powder explosion there can probably be no cause of down range fires.

Downrange fires and evidence of burned patching are the usual signs of a too thin patching. which also detracts from any accuracy.

Dutch Schoultz

 

[MSW]

Dutch is right (he usually is) ... you need a micrometer, not calipers.

try this: http://www.harborfreight.com/catalogsearch/result?q=micrometer

Charlie is right, too... the circular cutter gadget is a really clever tool. and GET THE MAT (if you know what's good for you - don't ask me how I know) you can get replacement wheels, too - be careful... they're very sharp!

good luck with your project, and

Make good smoke! :grin: