Brown Bess on the Market...

[Ike Godsey]

Howdy Folks!!

I know I have not been "on Board" for a long time, so first of all, YES I am still alive. Thanks to Grumpa for the wishes and some others for the mails.

Before you ask guys - yes I am still fighting my cancer, but I am doing well. OK, lets talk about some much more important things than my health.

Here in a online auction appeared a smoothbore which in my untrained eyes looks like a fragment of an P56 LLP. I could be wrong, thats why I post here the pics of the auction. Lets see what you - the best experts in the world - would say to this:

The lock marks looks sonething like 1756 or 1758 and (I think) Farmer(??) but I am not sure.

Any suggestions?

Oh, BTW: The price right now is 3,00 US$

Thank you for listening :hatsoff:

Ike

 

[spudnut]

Pretty cool

 

[Artificer]

Ike,

Welcome Back and VERY good to see you posting again. My very best wishes on your health.

Farmer was one of the English Lock Contractors for the Brown Bess that I know made some a little before that time, but have to do more digging on information about him.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

OK, considering the date of the lock, it most likely was made by James (& Galton) Farmer of Birmingham. He had made the older P1740 Banana Shaped Locks and guns for P1742 muskets between 1747-51. The dates of his known and observed "straighter" P1756 locks/muskets by him are from 1762.

This information from The Brown Bess by Goldstein and Mowbray.


Gus

 

[Artificer]

Ike

I am sorry, but I can't see the Touch and View Marks on the barrel that well in this photo. Can you describe them? Also, can you describe the engraving and possibly Regimental Marking on top of the barrel and closer to the muzzle?


Gus

 

[pargent]

Looks right from limited photos , it is also marked with Royal Welsh rgt mark and as such would be a steal at $3000 should be nearly 10 times that .The crown and septa marks look a little high on the barrel ,Ike the only way to realy tell is to see the inside of the lock and the barrel and ramrod channels , the rear and under side of the breech area of the barrel .

 

[Ike Godsey]

Howdy!

I have asked the seller for a couple of more pics, and this is what came in today:

I thoughts are, to win the auction (hopefully), take the gun apart, check the barrel (the seller wrote the lock works well). Use all the original metal parts to rebuild a (maybe cut down) musket.

Because of the limited ways on spare parts here in Germany, I thougt on simply use a Ped. Bess stock for it as well as some of the brass parts to have a "parts gun" for AWI.
I know I have to do some work on the Ped. Bess stock to get rid of the carvings around the lock area, but I really do not have any other option here in Germany, if I want a stock that is not an indian rosewood...

Could you guys please judge the gun from the pics and give some suggestions on how much it is worth?
I really do not have any idea, so need your information please.

@Gus: I worte the seller again and asked for some better pics of the barrel marks - hope he replies. I am sorry, I cannot give you any more informations on the musket. I am about 650 KM away from it, so I am not able to go there and look at it in the short amount of time the auction is runnig. This is just 13 days and I have to show up in the hospital on March 10th through March 14th to do some check ups.

You guys got some suggestions on the Musket?
Or any advise?
All help is really welcome.

Ike

 

[Artificer]

Ike,

:shocked2: OMG, you are thinking of putting those nice original parts in a Pedersoli Stock? ...:barf:...:wink:...:haha:

Personally, I would only try to conserve and preserve that gun, though study the parts for historic reasons.

The P 1756 Musket had more drop in the stock than the Pedersoli Bess and there are a LOT of things wrong with the brass parts of the Pedersoli Bess for a P 1756 Musket.

I just checked Dunlap stocks and they have these for sale and also in European Walnut:

Brown Bess Stocks

These stocks are provided as replacement stocks for the Italian mass-produced Brown Bess Muskets. The stocks are provided in two versions. The first is a detailed direct copy of the reproduction musket. The second variety has approximately ¾ of an inch more drop and makes the finished gun much more comfortable to handle and shoot. The only modification to the original Italian hardware is to slightly bend the brass triggerguard to accommodate the slight increase in drop. Both variations are nearly completely inletted for all of the hardware. Available in black walnut, black cherry and straight-grained ash at the same price. http://www.dunlapwoodcrafts.com/MilitaryStocks.php#33

To me and including the huge shipping cost to your location, that would not be acceptable.

IF you really must put the parts in a new stock, have you considered checking with Peter Dyson in the UK for what would be a more appropriate stock?

Gus

 

[Ike Godsey]

Gus,

the Ped-Stock was just a first thought.
GB does have some pretty heavy restrictions in selling gun parts out of the country, that includes stocks as well...

Anyway, those pics just came in:

I have asked the seller for some measurements ass total lenght, barrel lenght, kaliber, lockplate lenght etc.

Ike

 

[Ike Godsey]

Here are some additional informations and pics that just came in:

overall length is 1,30 meter = 51 inch
barrel lenght is 0,9 meter = 38 inch
kaliber 18/19mm equals .75

The lock is (as shown in the pic) 17,5cm long that equals ca. 6,7 inch.

On a second thought, the stock does not look too bad at all... If i could get it, I will look if and what I could save of the original parts & wood.

Ike (waiting for YOUR input)

 

[pargent]

interesting ,39"barrel ? . pre1760 lock , raised side plate, Welsh RGT marked ...possible SGT musket or OFFICERS musket ,if it is indeed the real thing please get it restored by a serious pro

 

[pargent]

AHH HA it has been cut down from a 46"barrel after it left Welsh hands

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I'd agree it was a later version of the LLP, from one of the Welsh regiments. Preservation is all that you can really do with it.

NOW you might be able to get a very experienced restoration person to remove the trigger guard, butt plate, and side plate and have copies of those parts cast, BUT there are some very good parts already on the market, so perhaps simply obtaining those parts that match what is found on your gun is a better idea?

It would be nice to check the dimensions for the LLP lock from Track of The Wolf to see how close it is to your gun. Finished a repro-lock to your lock's dimensions, AND having it marked with "Farmer" and the year, would be fun.


LD

 

[satx78247]

I don't know enough to have an educated opinion on the musket BUT both of us are really pleased that you are still here & "fighting the good fight".

BEST WISHES, "Duckie" & satx

 

[MSK]

Ike. Glad to know you're doing ok and very happy to see you posting again.

Smollett

 

[Artificer]

Looks right from limited photos , it is also marked with Royal Welsh rgt mark and as such would be a steal at $3000 should be nearly 10 times that .The crown and septa marks look a little high on the barrel ,Ike the only way to realy tell is to see the inside of the lock and the barrel and ramrod channels , the rear and under side of the breech area of the barrel .

My compliments. You must have excellent vision to have picked out the Regimental markings before Ike posted the clearer pictures.


Gus

 

[Artificer]

It would be nice to check the dimensions for the LLP lock from Track of The Wolf to see how close it is to your gun. Finished a repro-lock to your lock's dimensions, AND having it marked with "Farmer" and the year, would be fun.


LD

Dave,

I just rechecked TOW's stock and I don't believe it would work because it is inlet for the earlier banana shaped lock rather than the straighter bottomed P1756 lock on the gun Ike is thinking about buying. However, it MIGHT be possible to get the stock without the lock inletting and then it would be a more viable option.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

AHH HA it has been cut down from a 46"barrel after it left Welsh hands

Indeed, it appears the musket was cut down to be used as a cheap shotgun after it was "surplus sold" from government ownership.

Gus

 

[Grumpa]

Welcome back, Ike. :thumbsup: :hatsoff:

I vote for restoration. It could get very costly, but a truly expert artisan could work wonders on that musket. As with everything, you have to decide how far you want to go, and if the cost is worth it. Good luck, whatever you decide.

On a more personal level, I wish you the best on your upcoming checkups. ff :thumbsup:

I have been off the Forum most of the weekend, and today the first thread I hit on is your post. I am grinning from ear to ear. :grin:
Richard/Grumpa

 

[Ike Godsey]

Thank you Richard.
It is really good to see you guys are still here :grin:

As fars as for the musket - IF I ccould get my hands on it, I will see if restoring is an option.

You guys need to understand doe to gun laws, we here have a lot of trouble shooting guns, transporting guns etc.
The easiest way to handle a gun is if its flintlock (any kind) or matchlocks.

I for one thought of using this musket (if I could get it) as a cut back musket for an AWI impression.
It could be a battlefield pick up with a demaged muzzle and was privatley cut back to get a useable gun.

There is wood missing on the forestock, so if that has to be added, the question comes to my mind, if this is privatley cut back gun, would any one cut the stock back for a bajonett?
Or would it be cut back to a short, but "full stock" gun?

The P56 LLP does normally have a long entry timble - so the second question on restoring the stock would be, if it was cut back by (maybe a private gunshmith or a rebell blacksmith) would they reinstall the correct trimbles for the rammer?
And what about the nose cap?
Maybe it was missing doe to the demage on the muskets barrel. Would it be possible someone add a new (maybe different type) nose cap to such a gun?

Any suggestions?

Ike