Better Penetration: close or far?

[Carl Fowler III]

I was wondering what the experience of you here on the forum think on this matter! Not having much experience myself on shooting live game with PRB...I have used Buffalo Bullets in the past in my Renegade...this concerns me.

I always figured the PRB would not distort much if any at the distances normally shot at big game (100 yds or less ) but from reading here on the forum I see that this is not the case. PRB's do deform upon entrance to the body and of course how much depends on bone contact as well. But lets say the ball does not hit bone other than the rib on the way into the softer tissue and body organs, will the PRB deform enough to slow penetration and stop a complete pass thru?

Will more velocity help or impede penetration...how about a larger caliber at the same velocity levels...or using a harder ball which would deform less at shorter distances? Some say that penetration is improved at longer distance ( 75 yds versus 25yds ) and I can only assume that this is due to deformation of the PRB's at these closer distances?

Looking more for personal experience's rather than theoretical answers...thx! :bow:

 

[BrownBear]

Kind of hard to measure when 99.9% of the balls are complete pass throughs. I've only ever recovered one, a .530 launched by 90 grains of 3f to cut flesh at 55 yards. It entered at the lower white patch on a Sitka blacktail's neck, took out a couple of vertebrae and stopped against the hide on the back of the neck.

Every single broadside shot I've taken, with cals from 50 to 62 and charges from 60 grains to 120 grains has double ventilated.

 

[Carl Fowler III]

That's a pretty hefty load from your .54 cal...and to think it never even got thru the neck of a deer at 55 yds, what did the ball look like...was it totally deformed?

I know there is no way of telling deformation of PRB that has passed thru an animal...looking more for experience's of PRB's used at lets say 25 yds versus 75 yds with very similar wound channels where the ball deformed at 25 yds but was a complete pass thru at 75 yds? In otherwards was the lower velocity at 75 yds cause for better penetration? It seems to me we would be much better off using a harder ball if this is the case! :hmm:

 

[BrownBear]

It was flattened like a quarter with a dimple on the back, yet lost less than 10% of the weight. Bone fragments all over tarnation in the neck.

Same load on broadside shots as close as 20 yards and and as far as 75 yards have given no indication of expansion with essentially identical wound channels. They look the same as my wife's broadside shots to 50 yards with 60 grains of 3f from her 54, as a matter of fact.

Only time I expect any noticeable expansion is when bone is encountered. At the vels of ML's, there's just not much deformation on flesh, even with pure lead round balls. That's just not the way they kill.

Helped a bud dress and butcher a nice buck he shot at 50 yards with a pure lead 50 cal maxi on top of 80 grains of 3f. It was an endo shot, entering at the brisket and recovered under the hide at the back of the right ham. The nose of the maxi was smeared a little, but no expansion.

I wouldn't expect a pure lead RB to penetrate so far even with no expansion. But the funny thing is, our RB deer usually die faster than that guy did. Gotta factor in some weirdness in animal responses when trying to compare ballistics.

 

[MercerLake]

:v I've always had complete pass thrus using .54,
.62 and .72 even after they struck bone. In fact I generally aim to hit/break bones knowing the ball will pass thru completely. This increases shock and generally puts deer, elk, and bear on the ground. I once had a very large black bear getup and go another 20-30yds before expiring. A large caliber Rb doesn't have to expand much as it is already bigger in diameter than most high velocity expanding bullets. Large full length wound channels result in massive hemorrage.
Unless you are shooting rhinos, elephants, or "T Rex" you shouldn't need hardened lead balls, soft or hard Rbs kill very well. :v

 

[George T.]

I never had a pass thru with 40's but I never retrived a 50. Now these were small Texas deer. The exit hole on the 50's showed expansion and the 40's were flat in a dome shape. Geo. T.

 

[Carl Fowler III]

I never had a pass thru with 40's but I never retrived a 50. Now these were small Texas deer. The exit hole on the 50's showed expansion and the 40's were flat in a dome shape. Geo. T.

Very interesting Geo T, which of those different calibers (.40 no pass thru versus the.50 with pass thru's) seemed to have the most effect on the deer...travel after shot...dropped on spot...dropped, but got back up and recovered at a distance? Did the pass thru's leave a better blood trail, I suspect they did?

I know these are subjective answers, but the more data collected should lead to improved understanding of the use of the PRB we prefer to use in this sport! :hmm:

 

[Little Wattsy]

I have killed buffalo - over 1000lbs, elk to 750 lbs, and deer to the 200 lb range; All with my .54 using PRB's from 40 to near 100 yards. It is an impressive would channel. I prefer good soft lead and it mushrooms nicely.
I traded out my .50's and connicals for this setup and have had NO reason to regret it.

 

[George T.]

I'm sorry I usually add that non of the 40 cal. kills went over 65 yards and the 50's just link of crumbled right there. One was a spins hit and redefined dead right there! Remember that these deer dressed weighed between 85 and 100 pounds!

I always wanted to see what my 50 would do on a 300 pound deer. Now I have a 58 and these little deer are in deep yougrt! Geo. T.

 

[hanshi]

Using prb in calibers from .45 up, the vast majority of my deer kills were pass through hits. I have recovered a few here and there over the years. All my shots, IIRC, were varying degrees of broadside to quartering.

I consider the following to be factual. Rules of thumb: conicals generally out penetrate prb; prb of soft lead are faster and expand readily on closer shots and out to reasonable distances; the farther the shot with a prb, the more likely is a pass through; the harder (WW for example) the projectiles (prb and conicals) the less the expansion and the greater the penetration; pass through shots = better blood trails; projectile expansion is most always to be preferred; non expanded prb pass through hits (say, .45 minimum) kill deer quickly though they might run a few yards farther; shot placement trumps all else; large caliber (.58 and maybe .54 on up don't need expansion to be quick killers on deer.

 

[Rat Trapper]

Couple days ago a friend told me he knew a guy who used to run an enclosed hunting outfit for pigs. Told me this guy would not let anyone hunt his pigs with PRB as they would not go through the tough shoulder bone? Since the guy who told me this did not see it happen and does not shoot muzzle loaders I have no idea if this is true. Does anyone think there is any truth in this?? I also have no idea of calibers used either.

 

[Kapow]

Horse poo! .50 cal and up with hunting loads those pigs are toast. More than likely the sorts of dudes who would hunt pigs in an enclosure had no idea how to shoot and gave their guns a bad rap.

 

[roundball]

As some possible additional info, I use stout powder charges for hunting and have only recovered a couple balls as most are pass-throughs from broadside heart shots.
One I recovered is this .600” cast ball out of a .62cal Flintlock...was sitting down at ground level in a natural ground blind, shot the buck straight in the chest at 30-40yds, the ball traveled the full length of his body, broke through the right rear thigh bone, and stopped, bulging under the hide on the back of the right ham...dropped in his tracks.

 

[Kapow]

.54 roundball through shoulder of a chunky boar. 100gns ffg load. Just like the toothpaste ad - "it does get in!"

 

[hanshi]

I agree with Kapow.

 

[stinkyfeet]

The reason was based upon peoples reviews and poor shot selection. Therefore the owner or guide took it as gospel. For the same reason many game ranches wont allow expandable/mechanical broadheads and only allow fixed heads. PRB are great like any other round you just have to be smart and take ethical shots.

 

[William O.]

Couple days ago a friend told me he knew a guy who used to run an enclosed hunting outfit for pigs. Told me this guy would not let anyone hunt his pigs with PRB as they would not go through the tough shoulder bone? Since the guy who told me this did not see it happen and does not shoot muzzle loaders I have no idea if this is true. Does anyone think there is any truth in this?? I also have no idea of calibers used either.

No truth to it at all; pigs are not bullet proof and fall to RB's all the time. He might as well have stated that bullets will bounce off a boar's chest shield so you can only shoot sows on his property.

 

[crockett]

One more point on the PRB. It is said that muzzle loading never really died out, during the late 1800's up until the 1960 rebirth there was still a handful of "Hog Rifles" being made in the Smoky Mountain region. These were percussion rifles and were used for everything but for some reason they are occasionally called hog rifles- in any event PRBs have been killing hogs for a long time.
Foxfire 5 tells a lot on rifle making, plus how to make black powder.

 

[daniel collums]

i took 6 deer this season and counting nov and dec of last year i have got 8 good hogs and 6 smaller ones, all with .490 rb out of a .50 cal. one of the deer a small 6 point about 100 # ran over the hill and across a 10 acre swamp i had to use a dog to find it after dark. the ball went through one lung but missed the other, it was kind of walking to me. all the others went down within seeing distance.all of them had pass through shots. all but three of the bigger hogs 100# and over still had the ball in them but all were neck shots that hit spine a couple were head shots that went through. all the smaller ones had pass through holes. some of the balls that came out of the big pigs were just under the skin and i had one that hit square in the spine that was almost splatted into nothing. it was a very close shot.three years ago i killed a 446# red deer,it was a 40 yard shot that hit right behind the shoulders,a pass through hitting ribs on both sides it only went about 50 yards. all my shots were made with 70 gr. of powder at about 20 to 50 yards.

 

[Rat Trapper]

Couple days ago a friend told me he knew a guy who used to run an enclosed hunting outfit for pigs. Told me this guy would not let anyone hunt his pigs with PRB as they would not go through the tough shoulder bone? Since the guy who told me this did not see it happen and does not shoot muzzle loaders I have no idea if this is true. Does anyone think there is any truth in this?? I also have no idea of calibers used either.

No truth to it at all; pigs are not bullet proof and fall to RB's all the time. He might as well have stated that bullets will bounce off a boar's chest shield so you can only shoot sows on his property.

I think you are correct. Most likely if the guy had a problem it was due to someone shooting a wimp load and hitting the pig in the wrong place. Some people just do not believe in using powder for hunting loads.