Before the micrometer

[George]

We are referring to a documented 18th century period claim/myth that said flintlock rifle shooters hit or could hit a period orange at 200 yards Offhand on every shot or almost every shot. It has been a while since I read the quote, but it was referring to riflemen at one event early in the AWI.

Can you provide the original claim?

Spence

 

[Artificer]

We are referring to a documented 18th century period claim/myth that said flintlock rifle shooters hit or could hit a period orange at 200 yards Offhand on every shot or almost every shot. It has been a while since I read the quote, but it was referring to riflemen at one event early in the AWI.

Can you provide the original claim?

Spence

Spence, I posted it on this forum but I can't remember where and exactly how long ago it was.

Guess I will have to try and find it again.

Gus

 

[azmntman]

Having been a great student of human nature all my life, and how people tell and remember stories and events, I can see how something done at an event or situation " grows ".

Example:
During an after-the-wedding ceremony party on the American frontier in central PA in October of 1792, some of the men who brought their guns engage in some semi-formal shooting competition. Someone rounded up a sack fallen walnuts that still had the dark-green outer hull on them for use as targets.
During the course of the afternon's shooting, the walnuts were placed further and further away to add difficulty, and weed out the less talented sooner.
Eventually, some were set up on a log that at least one of those present guessed to be 200 yards distant. Most allowed that the log was closer to 150-160 yards away.
Approximately 50 shots were fired at the walnuts on the log, with at least two being well-hit, and fragmenting, with possibly a third one grazed and rolling off the log to the rear.
A witness relating details to someone else of the event the next day, or 40 years later tells of seeing with his own eyes the riflemen of old busting walnuts at 200 yards, which DID happen, and could swear on the Bible it is a true story, because he honestly believes he told the story accurately and completely.

I seriously don't know anyone that can see a walnut that far. NO-ONE.....Maybe they knew about where the nuts were and aimed for the spot they thought it was? :idunno:

 

[Artificer]

Can't believe I found it this quickly:

I posted it under the following heading:

Part 1. EARLY REVOLUTIONARY WAR PROPAGANDA

3rd Quote comes from Richard Henry Lee and claimed that six counties in western Virginia could provide 6000 riflemen with "their amazing hardihood, their method of living so long in the woods without carrying provisions with them, the exceeding quickness with which they can march to distant parts, and above all, their dexterity...in the use of the Rifle Gun...every shot is fatal." Lee went so far as to assert that these riflemen could hit an orange at 200 yards.

Discussion. I have not yet been able to find a date on the above quote or original source that may explain this quote better. I strongly suspect it was before he offered his famous Independence Resolution to the Second Continental Congress on June 7, 1776.
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/...d/300303/post/1569573/hl/orange/fromsearch/1/

I think I originally got this quote from "Colonial Riflemen of the American Revolution" (Longrifle series) by Joe Huddleston, BUT I am not sure about that as it was posted over 2 years ago on this forum.

Have you seen this quote before in your files, Spence?

Gus

Edited to add: Oh, and a little more information, late in the War, Lee changed his tune drastically and actually ordered his riflemen NOT to fire at distances over 150 yards.

 

[George]

That particular quote was from a letter written by Lee to his brother Arthur in London on Feb. 24, 1775, before the war. Analysts I've read were of the opinion he knew his brother would make his opinions known to the British establishment and that it might cause them to think twice about going to war. He was apparently not describing some specific event, something he had seen, but was spreading a little propaganda.

What he actually wrote was: "There is not one of these men who wish a distance of less than 200 yards or an object larger than an orange."

Spence

 

[Artificer]

Thank you.

Gus

 

[Grenadier1758]

Am I the only one that doubts that anyone would waste presumably good oranges by using them for targets?

Wouldn't oranges been an expensive luxury in those days in that area?

I don't think they were shooting at a citrus orange, most likely it would have been an Osage Orange. None the less, I don't think that an Osage Orange would be any easier to see.

Also it is likely an exaggeration of accomplishment or a bit of propaganda to discourage British Military involvement in an armed conflict that would be very difficult to win.

 

[Rifleman1776]

I seriously don't know anyone that can see a walnut that far. NO-ONE.

Agree. Any hits would have been pure chance.

 

[George]

There are many period descriptions of the shooting done by riflemen, and many of them seem exaggerated or impossible to us today. I'm sure that is proper in many cases, but one thing is apparent, the people of the day were much impressed by the riflemen and their guns. This letter by a teenage immigrant Scot is a good example. He may have been mistaken, but there can't be much doubt he believed what he was describing.

Teenager and recent immigrant to the region of Kettle Creek, Georgia, Baika Harvey, to Thomas Baika, December 30, 1775, Orkney Island Archives, Scotland.
Quoted in _Tory Insurgents: The Loyalists Perception and Other Essays_, Robert M. Calhoon, Timothy M. Barnes and Robert S. Davis
“...the Americans are Smart Industrious hardy people & fears Nothing”¦.I am Just Returned from the Back parts where I seed Eight Thousand men in arms all with Riffled Barrill guns which they can hit the Bigness of a Dollar between Two & Three hundred yards Distance the Little Boys not Bigger than my self has all their Guns & marches with their Fathers & all their Cry is Liberty or Death Dear Godfather tell all my Country people not to come here for the Americans will kill them Like Dear in the Woods & they will never see them they can lie on their Backs & Load & fire & every time they draws sight at anything they are sure to kill or Creple & they Run in the Woods like Horses I seed the Liberty Boys take Between Two & Three hundred Torreys & one Liberty man would take & Drive four or five before him Just as shepards do the sheep in our Cuntry & they have taken all their arms from them and put the head men in gaile ”¦”

Spence

 

[BrownBear]

While I doubt the dollar claim, I kinda support the veracity of his claim if he's talking about 200 yard hits on soldiers. Kinda suspicious about his estimate of 300 yard distances, though.

I'm basing that on a little bit of range experience.

Got into a jawing match with my principal hunting pard's grown son. The outcome was a pair of standard B-27 silhouette targets at 200 yards, 10 shots apiece prone, all loading done while prone.

Based on prior shooting, I opted to use the "head" as an aiming point and let the balls fall where they would. Dunno his aiming point. I was shooting a GPR 54 with a receiver sight and he was shooting his usual 50 cal TC Hawken with standard sights.

Once the smoke cleared and we walked downrange, I'd have spoiled the guy's reproductive potential rather than an immediate kill, but there were 10 holes in the black in a group good enough to surprise me.

Like I said, I don't know his aiming point, but he spanked me on score, all 10 of his holes nicely grouped at center of mass, 8's or better.

Dang youngsters anyway! :slap:

In warfare, that kind of shooting would certainly feed the legends among troops with smoothbores looking for brightly uniformed opponents politely standing upright in plain view! :thumbsup:

Anyone really pondering the accuracy claims for rifles in that era can satisfy their own curiosity with the same target. Won't settle the orange/walnut/dollar claims, but I think you'll come away with a different view of the warfare claims.

 

[Artificer]

While I doubt the dollar claim, I kinda support the veracity of his claim if he's talking about 200 yard hits on soldiers. Kinda suspicious about his estimate of 300 yard distances, though.

I'm basing that on a little bit of range experience.

Got into a jawing match with my principal hunting pard's grown son. The outcome was a pair of standard B-27 silhouette targets at 200 yards, 10 shots apiece prone, all loading done while prone.

Based on prior shooting, I opted to use the "head" as an aiming point and let the balls fall where they would. Dunno his aiming point. I was shooting a GPR 54 with a receiver sight and he was shooting his usual 50 cal TC Hawken with standard sights.

Once the smoke cleared and we walked downrange, I'd have spoiled the guy's reproductive potential rather than an immediate kill, but there were 10 holes in the black in a group good enough to surprise me.

Brown Bear,

Thank you. :thumbsup:

Great real life example of what I have often posted my speculation about in the past in this forum on threads about 18th century Rifle Accuracy in the AWI!

The aiming point would have been CRUCIAL to hit at what we now call medium range.

More than once I have speculated the aiming point on an enemy soldier would be the top of his hat at 200 yards in the AWI. A little closer distance than that would be the face, a little closer the top of the soldier's shoulders using the base of the neck as the aiming point (BTW, this last is still the best aiming point on human type silhouette targets at least as far as 500 yards with an unmentionable rifle) and so on. These aiming points at these distances will drop the PRB in or near "center mass" on the target and it would take the enemy soldier out of commission, whether or not it killed him instantly. (Of course one would have still needed to read the wind and adjust for it when they shot.)

The fact that Light Horse Harry Lee ordered his Riflemen to fire from no more than 150 yards later on in the AWI, to me seems to be a testament to the maximum range that American Rifleman could be counted on to hit an enemy soldier most of the time.

The problem with original accounts for ranges longer than 200 yards is they would have had to have a lot of practice elevating the front sight above the top of the rear sight and/or even using part of the barrel to the rear of the front sight.

IMO, the rather famous quote of a rifleman having sent a ball between the British Officers Banistre Tarleton and George Hanger at 400 yards, was ONLY possible because there were woods behind them and the American Rifleman was no doubt using the tops of the trees as the aiming point. This because the drop of a PRB at that distance is 40 FEET.

Gus

 

[BrownBear]

I suspect (based on that range experience) that it would depend a lot upon the range at which the gun was sighted in. My young bud sights his in at 100 yards while I sight mine at 75 yards (big difference), so it's within reason that he too was using the head as an aiming point. I just squared up the front and rear sights, then set the head on top of the sight for a "6 o'clock" hold for shot to shot consistency. I suspect he did the same thing, but the difference in original sighting made a foot to 18" difference in POI at 200 yards.

 

[George]

This because the drop of a PRB at that distance is 40 FEET.

What caliber rifle, sighting distance, etc, did you use for this shot? Calculating for a .54 caliber sighted in at 100 yards the drop below line of sight at 400 yards is 21 feet. Sighted in at 200 yards it's 16 feet.

Spence

 

[Artificer]

Excellent point on what range the rifle was sighted in originally.

I have never come across any period account that documented at what range 18th century Riflemen sighted in their rifles. There are period accounts of how they put the point of the front sight in the bottom of the V notch and some other things, but not at what range - as far as I know.

I cannot document this, but I personally believe that especially those who were Longhunters or Professional Deer Hunters, they would have used what we call the maximum point blank zero (MPBZ) for their rifles. That is basically so throughout the range they normally shot, the ball would not raise or lower more than a few inches and one would not need to hold over. Using this method, they just aimed center on the target where they wanted the ball to hit, at any range up to the maximum range the ball would not drop too much.

OK, that is pretty darn vague, so I will mention from going over the charts that I think they would have zero'd their rifles at around 110 to 120 yards. Maybe they did zero their rifles at 100 yards and that would have given them a better MPBZ than 75 yards and would work better at 200 yards as you found out?

Gus

 

[Artificer]

This because the drop of a PRB at that distance is 40 FEET.

What caliber rifle, sighting distance, etc, did you use for this shot? Calculating for a .54 caliber sighted in at 100 yards the drop below line of sight at 400 yards is 21 feet. Sighted in at 200 yards it's 16 feet.

Spence

I was using the old charts for a .50 cal PRB that were easy to find before the image hosting companies stopped free hosting.

Plugging a .54 PRB sighted in at 100 yards at a velocity of 1450 puts the drop at 400 yards at -536.5 inches which is over 44 feet of drop, in the calculator linked below.
http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/rbballistics/web_apps/rb_ballistics.html

Gus

 

[Artificer]

I got interested what powder charge would have done that and it seems it was an 80 grain charge.

Stepping up to a 100 grain charge at Muzzle Velocity of 1,588 and sighted at 100 yards, it still has a drop of -494.8 inches or over 41 feet at 400 yards distance.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

Am I the only one that doubts that anyone would waste presumably good oranges by using them for targets?

Wouldn't oranges been an expensive luxury in those days in that area?

I don't think they were shooting at a citrus orange, most likely it would have been an Osage Orange. None the less, I don't think that an Osage Orange would be any easier to see.

Also it is likely an exaggeration of accomplishment or a bit of propaganda to discourage British Military involvement in an armed conflict that would be very difficult to win.

FWIW, when I first read that quote I wondered the same thing about oranges. A long internet search showed real oranges were very expensive in the period and came up from the Caribbean, though they were smaller than modern oranges at around 2 inches in diameter or less.

Yes, I always thought this quote was pure propaganda from the first time I came across it.

Thanks to George finding the actual quote, time period and where it was written; it is a pretty safe bet that was true.

Gus

 

[Gene L]

Back to feeling the thickness of cloth, I have no doubts some were good at it, and still are. What I question was how many sources of cloth were available to the average frontiersman to feel?

I think they were forced to do with what they had to.

 

[Artificer]

Back to feeling the thickness of cloth, I have no doubts some were good at it, and still are. What I question was how many sources of cloth were available to the average frontiersman to feel?

I think they were forced to do with what they had to.

It all depends on which frontier and in what time period.

Cloth of many different types were available, IF people could afford them.

It does not seem likely the cloth that frontier folks wove for themselves came in a wide variety of thread count/thicknesses, though Period Weavers seemed to have followed frontiersmen fairly early and they made all sorts of cloth.

Patch strip material for rifles could have been made on period tape looms or from scrap pieces of home made linen cloth used as well.

Personally I'm coming to think that on the earliest settlers, they used buckskin for patches quite often, as it was more readily available and possibly less time consuming than growing flax or gathering nettles or buffalo hair and weaving that into cloth. I think most of the early home cloth production would have mostly gone into use for clothing.

Gus

 

[Jotto626]

I don't know much....but I know when Hawkeye uses silk for patching, he gets an extra 40 or 50 yards.

LOTM