America Pioneer Powder

[wisc]

Anyone used this stuff? Does it shoot the same as pyrodex ie will my ballistic charts thatI use for pyrodex be accurate with this brand? Second does it truly clean up like they say.
thaks in advance.

 

[jim gray]

I tried Clean Shot FFFg in my C&B revolvers. APP used to be Clean Shot I believe. I was not impressed with performance and it left a hard white residue on my guns which was a PITA to clean. I don't know if they've improved the product since then, but I wouldn't use it again.

 

[Dave K]

I used it in my cap guns. I really can't say I had any complaints about it. I found it shot clean(as advertised) in my guns. Of course they still needed cleaning. Actually I liked it. BUT, I also found it seemed to degrade as it got older. I had/have both 2F and 3F and used it from 32cal. up to the 12ga. shotguns.

 

[montanadan]

wisc-there is a serious love-hate relationship with APP powder.I for one like it,but you have to know how to use it.APP is very hygroscopic(it absorbs moisture like crazy),second it hates a lot of every one's favotie patch lube.APP is not very dense,but 2fg and 3fg have the same burn rates.To work well it has to have some compression,most muzzeloaders who use it use 3fg.APP does not work well with Ox-yoke or T/C bore butters,or Ballistol for that matter.Yor barrel needs to be cleaned of all lubes prior to shooting,I use disc brake cleaner on patches to get rid of all lubes.I use rubbing alcohol for patch lube,just damp.Patches that are to wet, APP will absorb the moisture from the patch(kind of like shooting wet powder).Getting back to loads and density.If you shoot,say,60grns goex,you need 70grns of App.,and immediately you think it is not as powerful.App is not as dense as BP or pyrodex,so there are more grains in a pound.It will clean up with plain water(so does BP)APP is much easier.I would not recomend APP for hunting ,especially back east where the humidity is very high.I am done rambling now,since I have changed over to Swiss B/P I have not shot any SUB's lately.I realise there is a need for Sub's not everyone can buy BP over the counter.I live in casper,WYo,and you can not by BP over the counter any more(use to be three shops that sold it),they either closed or stopped selling it.Respectfully Montanadan

 

[shmrck1]

montanadan,
Great post and information :thanks:
snake-eyes :hatsoff:

 

[walruskid1]

thanks for the info. that explains why last match why i had several shots that went fooop instead of boom. it was raining and i was using bore butter too. my 2f APP was in a lump in the can. i had to break up the chunks to use it. has anybody had the same problem with 777?

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

FWIW I use the APP in my 50cal Mowrey up here in the Nor'East, when running informal Seneca runs and BP Biathlons, and I just love APP for that use.

My patches are strips soaked in cutting oil "ala Dwight Shultz", which are then dried flat. So the dry, yet lubed, patches doesn't contaminate the powder. This rifle also shoots best with the DS-approach to patching. With APP, I've run and shot in everything from rainstorms to white out blizzard conditions and I've yet to have a failure to fire.

I've gone up to 50 shots without wiping the barrel and once wiped, that patch @ 50 looks identical to a patch from the barrel after the 1st shot. It doesn't build up at all. I also foul the barrel before shooing shot #1 with a charge of ~ 30 grains. For cleaning, I like the Butch's BP Bore Shine, that stuff is awesome! Even turned some diehard smoothbore guys onto it. They did their best and cleaned their $3K :: BP toys with soap & water ... and then I gave them each a patch with a few drops of Butch's BP cleaning solvent on them ... and the patches took a lot more crud out. They won't admist it, but I know they each bought a bottle for a good cleaning to use here and there :blue:.

Back to this topic, I'm really sold on APP for timed shooting as it doesn't build up and I can just load and go PHOOOOMMMM :thumbsup:! But honestly, when speed isn't on the menu, it's good ole BP for me!

 

[montanadan]

walruskid1-up until about two months ago I was still playing with sub's.The new App powder is a lot better than the older batches,and a little more power.Pinnacle powder may be the best Sub for all around shooting(I know I am sticking my neck out).Not as hygroscopic,not a true ascorbic acid base powder(contains real charcoal),and somewhat more forgiving,including T-7.T-7 is very compression sensitive,and can become somewhat erratic(especially if overly compressed).I use to shoot a lot of T-7 ,and proably would, if I had to.I would not vary to far from the recommended loads on the web-site,especially in cap-n-ball revolvers.I have witnessed to many guys destroy their CB pistols trying to be cute with T-7,I tried to warn them.Muzzeloading rifles it works good.plenty of power,easy clean up(plain water).Best results for me were with moderately lubed patches and HOT caps,medium loads.My accuracy started to go away with the upper end charges,but depending on your shooting needs you may never encounter this.I spent a day with T-7 and a Chrono,the shot to shot deviations on the heavier charges might suprise you.all in all T-7 is pretty good,I still think the pinnacle powder is the best of the subs.I have never shot any Black Mag,so I can not comment.One word of warning,T-7 3fg,DO NOT load in any cartridges(2fg watch the compression),pay attention to you loads with the single shot pistols and CB's and you will be fine.Respectfully Montanadan

 

[walruskid1]

who makes pinnacle and is it a sub?

 

[Hawkeye]

who makes pinnacle and is it a sub?

GOEX makes and yes it is a "sub" check out http://www.goexpowder.com/product-ezload.html

 

[Bob J]

walruskid1-up until about two months ago I was still playing with sub's.

I went through the "substitute phase" and,although I never shot APP, did shoot Black Mag3. Here's what my experience was;
Pyrodex; "Yuk" corrosive, hard to clean up
Triple 7; accurate, easy to clean up
Black Mag 3; accurate, VERY easy to clean up
Goex Pinnacle; accurate, VERY easy to clean up

Began to "see the light" and went back to Goex blackpowder. Accurate, messy, and the sulfuric smoke that can't be beat :front:

PS: I hear that Swiss is some good stuff :winking:

 

[montanadan]

walruskid1-pinnacle powder is a joint venture with APP and Goex,basically the same as the new APP,but with differences.Pinnacle powder is a charcoal based powder,less hygroscopic,meters a little better,and is more dense.Most muzzleloaders will never need anything other than 3fg,the fines of Pinnacle are still larger than 3fg Goex.Pinnacle has good SD's,and hangs right in there with Goex as far as power goes.Not much difference on the CHRONO(but in fairness to Goex,the Goex batch was 2 yrs old).Pinnacle has very low flash point,ignition the same as Goex.Load development was easy,and was very accurate.Bad side-to me it is expensive,might be because you have two companies involved.When I looked at ordering a case of Pinnacle through POWDER INC..I noticed that a case of SWISS was actually cheaper.That is how I came to shoot swiss,it is all that is cracked up to be and then some.(I am on my second case,split with my shooting buddy)For shooters that want or have to shoot SUB's,I think Pinnacle is still the best out there right now.It is easy on the guns,cleans up well,has a good shelf life and is accurate.Do I still shoot Goex BP,you bet,I would like to try some KIK.Sorry for being so long winded..Respectfully Montanadan

 

[brubincam]

how good are black mag 3 and pinnacle in flintlocks?

 

[graybeard]

Black Mag 3 will give you nothing but headaches in a flintlock. You'll find that sometimes it works fine, next shot there's a delay and the one after that the main charge never goes off. I e-mailed them several times about the problems, since they said the stuff would work fine in flinters. I thought maybe I was doing something wrong, but never could get an answer from their tech department. Someone told me they had received the message and had passed it on to the technical department, but it died there. I was using 4f goex for prime. I went back to straight goex 3f for prime and charge and the problems stopped. BM3 works great in caplocks, however, and cleans up as advertised. But, it's expensive and harder to find than goex. :results:graybeard

 

[Bob J]

how good are black mag 3 and pinnacle in flintlocks?

Having read Graybeard's (and others') experiences with substitutes in flintlocks, I never tried 'em. Goex works fine for me.

 

[walruskid1]

i guess that i'm lazy and like the fact that accuracy does not fall off if i don't patch between shots. clean up is easy and 777 does not appear to be corrosive. is pinnacle corrosive? i know from experience that pyrodex is. i used to use bp and scrub, lately i've been using 777. my rifle shoots the same with either one.

 

[brubincam]

i was just over on another forum and a guy said he has an inline but would like a side lock but they are a bear to clean,iwas watching guys clean their inlines and they are hard to clean,taking out the breach plug etc, a side lock can be cleaned very well in abt 15 minutes

 

[Hawkeye]

i was just over on another forum and a guy said he has an inline but would like a side lock but they are a bear to clean,iwas watching guys clean their inlines and they are hard to clean,taking out the breach plug etc, a side lock can be cleaned very well in abt 15 minutes

Ain't marketing a wonderful thing?

 

[Bob J]

i was just over on another forum and a guy said he has an inline but would like a side lock but they are a bear to clean,iwas watching guys clean their inlines and they are hard to clean,taking out the breach plug etc, a side lock can be cleaned very well in abt 15 minutes

I'll admit to being anal about cleaning. My GPR and TC percussions take about 45 minutes from start to "Squeeky Clean", lock, stock and barrel. That inline took me about 1 1/2 hr :shocking: :shake:.